2022-2023 Regular Season II: Cardiac Cavs

raiders91sc said:

Besides our lack of production at the SF our biggest issue is our offensive/defensive efficiency of our big 3 compared to other teams stars.

1. Giannis-Tatum-Embid-Mitchell

2. Holiday-Brown-Harden-Garland

3. Middleton-Smart-Maxey-Mobley

I don't think anybody expects Mitchell to be better than those 3. In a 7 game series maybe 1 or 2 games he is the best player on the floor. I really dont expect Mitchell to catch these 3 over the next 3 years. If that is the case our #2 and #3 have to be better. I think Garland is closer to the other #2 players but I would say all 3 are currently better. I would also say Garland is gonna catch Harden and Holiday sooner rather than later in the next 3 year and could be equal or better than Brown offensively but not defensively. Now with #3s I think this is where we can make bank in the future years. Mobley is going to continue to improve over the next 3 years while the other 3 are really maxed out. I could see Mobley being better than all 3 next year but how much better? It just comes down to staying healthy and our #2 and #3 getting better over the next 3 years so we can compete with the top 3.

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Eh part of having a great defense is you can swing a series against better talent.

The guys do need something and that's reps.

The contact by Embiid was determined to be marginal as he did not go through the space of Mobley. - NBA post-game justification for reversing the call

So that's how the NBA defines an offensive foul. The offensive player has to "go through the space" of the defender. IOW, his body has to end up past where the defender had established position. If the offensive player just throws an elbow into the defender, knocking him down, but does not continue moving "through his space" but stops and takes the shot at the spot of the contact, then the contact is deemed "marginal" even if the defender ends up on his butt with his back against the basket support.

The exception seems to be if the offensive player clubs the defender in the head. That's usually an offensive foul. If he clubs him in the chest with a shoulder or forearm it's a no-call. Stupid interpretation IMO. If the defender has position and the offensive player slams a shoulder or forearm into his torso, knocking him back far enough for the offensive player to get off an uncontested shot, it should be an offensive foul.

IMO Mobley needs to study some film of Kevin Love and learn how to draw offensive fouls. Mobley tends to drift with the player he's guarding - he "shadows" him. Mobley doesn't leap into a position and set his feet, he shadows the player and tries to block the shot. Offensive players throw themselves into him and Mobley is called for the foul because his feet aren't set - he's drifting. If you watch the Embiid play that's the case. If he were a split second quicker to the spot and set his feet he probably gets the call.

raiders91sc said:

Besides our lack of production at the SF our biggest issue is our offensive/defensive efficiency of our big 3 compared to other teams stars.

1. Giannis-Tatum-Embid-Mitchell

2. Holiday-Brown-Harden-Garland

3. Middleton-Smart-Maxey-Mobley

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I don't know if it makes sense to group Mitchell (a guard) with Giannis (a forward) or to group Mobley with Smart. Also, is the team with the three best players going to win every time or does the rest of the rotation matter?

The Cavs’ five starters -- Garland, Mitchell, Isaac Okoro, Evan Mobley and Jarrett Allen -- average out to 23.2 years old. The Bucks’ quintet is 30.2 -- and that doesn’t include Khris Middleton, who came off the bench in their most recent win against Brooklyn. Boston’s starting group is 27.8. Philadelphia’s is the oldest, checking in at 30.4. - Fedor, 3/2/23

For the Bucks, Holiday is 32, Brook Lopez 34, Middleton is 31 (and injured a lot this year), Joe Ingles 35, and Dragic 36. Their window may be closing fast. Boston is in good shape except starting forward Al Horford is 36. Philly has P.J. Tucker starting at age 37 while James Harden is 33.

The Cavs' time is coming, but not yet. My fear is that Orlando will get Victor Wembanyama to go along with Banchero and Franz Wagner to comprise a huge, athletic front line that nobody can handle.

Cavatt said:

Eh part of having a great defense is you can swing a series against better talent.

The guys do need something and that's reps.

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You have to guard and play good defense in the NBA to win a series but the NBA is built today for offense. Every advantage goes to the offense. Cavs play hard on defense, their coach is a pretty good defensive coach but Mitchell and Garland are not great defensive players and never will be. Now Mobley might 1 day might make all D team. In the #1s Mitchell is by far the worst defensive player, in the #2s Garland is only better than Harden and the #3s Mobley is probably the 2nd best.

Everything I have seen Cavs are rated as the top defensive team in the NBA. Celtics and Milwaukee are top 4 and Philly is in top 8. I would say all 4 play championship worthy defense and Cavs defense is not that much better that it will swing a series.

yes its about reps and that is pretty well what I said for Mobley and Garland. They are gonna continue to get better. But none of them are gonna catch Giannis-Tatum-Embid. These 3 are in MVP race the last 2 years and probably for the next 3. What Cav player can u say about this in the next 3 years?

raiders91sc said:

You have to guard and play good defense in the NBA to win a series but the NBA is built today for offense. Every advantage goes to the offense. Cavs play hard on defense, their coach is a pretty good defensive coach but Mitchell and Garland are not great defensive players and never will be. Now Mobley might 1 day might make all D team. In the #1s Mitchell is by far the worst defensive player, in the #2s Garland is only better than Harden and the #3s Mobley is probably the 2nd best.

Everything I have seen Cavs are rated as the top defensive team in the NBA. Celtics and Milwaukee are top 4 and Philly is in top 8. I would say all 4 play championship worthy defense and Cavs defense is not that much better that it will swing a series.

yes its about reps and that is pretty well what I said for Mobley and Garland. They are gonna continue to get better. But none of them are gonna catch Giannis-Tatum-Embid. These 3 are in MVP race the last 2 years and probably for the next 3. What Cav player can u say about this in the next 3 years?

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This doesn't matter to me. The MVP loses before the finals often. I remember Dirk getting it as he was losing a series. I also remember Dirk beating Lebron when no one would say Dirk was the better player.

Embiid needs to prove he can win, so far he has fallen woefully short.

Tatum and Brown have only proven to me they can be defended.

Giannis is a horse of another color IMO. He is mentally and physically imposing, but his team is aging rapidly.

Warriors beat Lebron 3x and I don't think anyone on that team was better than him. He could have gotten FMVP all 4 times and deserved it 3x.

Shit happens and good team can overcome great players and have often historically.

The offense has to improve, but that's normal on a team this young and the Celtics weren't this good offensively at the same time. It took years to get as good defensively as the Cavs are now

Wait, did someone actually claim that Mobley won't ever be as good as Tatum? That's a joke, right? He'll eventually be better, much better, than Tatum and it will be sooner rather than later. It's also likely peak Mobley is better than peak Embid. Giannis will be a challenge, though. But he himself said Mobley could be better than him.

Peacedog said:

Wait, did someone actually claim that Mobley won't ever be as good as Tatum? That's a joke, right? He'll eventually be better, much better, than Tatum and it will be sooner rather than later. It's also likely peak Mobley is better than peak Embid. Giannis will be a challenge, though. But he himself said Mobley could be better than him.

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You been drinking this morning?

No, I haven't been drinking this morning. If I was, I'd be spouting off something like suggesting we trade our all NBA defensive caliber center for any old wing.

Go look at Tatum's 2nd year numbers then and then tell me how it compares with where Evan is right now. Not even close.

adam81king said:

The Sixers had 13 *OFFENSIVE* rebounds and the Cavaliers had 21 TOTAL rebounds, but by all means get rid of the best rebounder on the team...

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Whenever Mobley is pulled away from the basket by perimeter defensive responsibilities and Allen isn’t in we are FUCKED on rebounding. It was painful to watch in the Sixers game

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raiders91sc said:

You have to guard and play good defense in the NBA to win a series but the NBA is built today for offense. Every advantage goes to the offense. Cavs play hard on defense, their coach is a pretty good defensive coach but Mitchell and Garland are not great defensive players and never will be. Now Mobley might 1 day might make all D team. In the #1s Mitchell is by far the worst defensive player, in the #2s Garland is only better than Harden and the #3s Mobley is probably the 2nd best.

Everything I have seen Cavs are rated as the top defensive team in the NBA. Celtics and Milwaukee are top 4 and Philly is in top 8. I would say all 4 play championship worthy defense and Cavs defense is not that much better that it will swing a series.

yes its about reps and that is pretty well what I said for Mobley and Garland. They are gonna continue to get better. But none of them are gonna catch Giannis-Tatum-Embid. These 3 are in MVP race the last 2 years and probably for the next 3. What Cav player can u say about this in the next 3 years?

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DG and Mitchell can be great defenders. They're not complete traffic cones. Opponent field goal percentages against:



Smart doesn't have a quarter of the physical gifts Mitchell has and he won DPOTY last season. DG just needs to get stronger.

Why is this team so bad at defending corner 3s? Holy %$^&. This isn't just a one player thing either. You're not going anywhere with percentages like these except onto a perpetual treadmill.

With tonight's size mismatches Kuzma and Porzingis will feel like they're shooting against air, they'll be able to shoot like they're in an empty gym against defenders who are 6" shorter or more.

Cassity14 said:

What happens when Mobley becomes our #1 and bumps the other guys down a peg? That's what I expect to happen fairly soon.

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Like when? I can see Mobley being better than Garland next year, but not Mitchell. But will Mobley be better than next year's Garland? Maybe.

I expect Mitchell to keep getting better too. Maybe in four years Mobley passes him, when he's 26 and Donovan is 30.

Wham with the Right Hand said:

I don't know if it makes sense to group Mitchell (a guard) with Giannis (a forward) or to group Mobley with Smart. Also, is the team with the three best players going to win every time or does the rest of the rotation matter?

The Cavs’ five starters -- Garland, Mitchell, Isaac Okoro, Evan Mobley and Jarrett Allen -- average out to 23.2 years old. The Bucks’ quintet is 30.2 -- and that doesn’t include Khris Middleton, who came off the bench in their most recent win against Brooklyn. Boston’s starting group is 27.8. Philadelphia’s is the oldest, checking in at 30.4. - Fedor, 3/2/23

For the Bucks, Holiday is 32, Brook Lopez 34, Middleton is 31 (and injured a lot this year), Joe Ingles 35, and Dragic 36. Their window may be closing fast. Boston is in good shape except starting forward Al Horford is 36. Philly has P.J. Tucker starting at age 37 while James Harden is 33.

The Cavs' time is coming, but not yet. My fear is that Orlando will get Victor Wembanyama to go along with Banchero and Franz Wagner to comprise a huge, athletic front line that nobody can handle.

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I am talking offensive/defensive efficiency when comparing our top 3 to other top 3. It's not about 1 on 1 talent, if they can guard each other or what position they play. It's about how efficient they put the ball in the basket or stop the ball going into the basket. That is what analytics are all about in simplest form. If Embid is 10% more efficient in putting the ball in the basket than Mitchell it doesn't matter what position he plays. He is a better player. You gotta use common sense u can't have 5 Embids

Peacedog said:

Wait, did someone actually claim that Mobley won't ever be as good as Tatum? That's a joke, right? He'll eventually be better, much better, than Tatum and it will be sooner rather than later. It's also likely peak Mobley is better than peak Embid. Giannis will be a challenge, though. But he himself said Mobley could be better than him.

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I think Mobley is gonna be a great player maybe top 20 in league. Tatum and Embid are top 5 right now. The difference btw Mobley and these 2 is not even comparable. Embid is averaging 35 points a game while Tatum is averaging 30 and took his team to the NBA finals as their #1 player. There are 5 super super stars in the NBA right now-Giannis, Embid, Jokic, Tatum, and Doncic. Durant Lebron and Curry are just outside this group today because of age and injuries but were in this group for a long time and this seasons on certain nights are in this group.