Darius Kinnard Garland

Smooth said:

Never indicated Garland is on a similar trajectory or said they play comparable games..

The point was simple: For all that is levied against Garland, if we zoom out he's been as productive in his time as one of the Cavalier greats in his first five years with the team... Garland needs to improve and has had a down year but he's still in a good place and the talent has produced..

The other point was for all that questioned about Kyrie, it took him some time to breakthrough... Ironically enough, it was year three with LeBron and a full year with Lue for Irving to really answer those questions, and it's looking like what it might take for Garland to take the next step..

Irving was 23 in year five, Garland is 24 in year five... I don't anticipate Garland having the huge upward trajectory as Irving did but development is not linear for young players and sometimes it takes a step back to go a step forward..

It really ain't that deep...

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Kyrie also had the kyrie-dion dynamic before lbj returned. The problem with that is dion thought he's 1B but kyrie is clear 1.

Unfortunately, in the DM-DG dynamic, DG is dion

ryanf said:

Kyrie also had the kyrie-dion dynamic before lbj returned. The problem with that is dion thought he's 1B but kyrie is clear 1.

Unfortunately, in the DM-DG dynamic, DG is dion

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except that comparison does not work. Garland has doubled produced Waiters ever did his last 2 years. Down years happen. I am sure the Cavs new staff and Garlands people will sit down and look went wrong internally, what went wrong outside his control and put together a plan.

ryanf said:

Kyrie also had the kyrie-dion dynamic before lbj returned. The problem with that is dion thought he's 1B but kyrie is clear 1.

Unfortunately, in the DM-DG dynamic, DG is dion

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Speaking of Dion...

bushwick_bill said:

Speaking of Dion...

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That was the highlight of that very shitty season.

The physical toughness question marks have been around since the begging for Darius, but I'm afraid the mental toughness aspect is becoming the much more glaring issue.

I know there is a very large segment that believe he is a star and absolutely a building block for the franchise, but something tells me Koby Altman is sweating bullets watching him play this season.

Cassity14 said:

The problem is that if Garland were playing at the same level as Kyrie 10 years ago, his stats would reflect the league-wide uptick in scoring and efficiency in that same period. They don’t.

I just don’t think the comparison is a good one to draw the conclusion that Garland is on a similar trajectory. His game and Kyrie’s game are also quite different. Garland is primarily a playmaker with a very nice outside shot; Irving was an isolation scorer. The whole reason Irving’s game was unlocked playing next to LeBron is because it allowed Kyrie to go from being a primary to a secondary playmaker and hunting his own shot first became less of an issue.

When we saw Kyrie play next to another ball dominant guard, things didn’t work out at all. Garland might be the Dion Waiters to Donovan Mitchell’s Irving. It’s probably moot though, because prime LeBron ain’t walking through that door.

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I still think that the Mavs have a puncher's chance, but Kyrie has played next to four of the best point-forwads in the modern NBA: LBJ, Durant, Harden, and now Luka. Every other elite scorer in a PG body would have killed for those opportunities in his career. The fact that he's made it work exactly one time, with best player of his generation, isn't great.

redscoon said:

The physical toughness question marks have been around since the begging for Darius, but I'm afraid the mental toughness aspect is becoming the much more glaring issue.

I know there is a very large segment that believe he is a star and absolutely a building block for the franchise, but something tells me Koby Altman is sweating bullets watching him play this season.

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I just think that mental toughness doesn't mean anything useful in most basketball contexts.

CavsKermit said:

If you're going to make that type of proclamation, I'd be curious as to who you consider to be the 16 starting PGs in front of him.

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I think it’s a lot closer than any of us want it to be. Putting them together in groupings (all of these guys are their teams starting PG):

Elite (3)
Curry, Luka (or Kyrie down a couple tiers), SGA

All Stars (6)
Haliburton, Brunson, Lillard, Booker, Maxey, Young,

Should Have Been All Stars (2)
Fox, Murray

Above Average (2)
Harden, Holiday

So that’s an easy 13, and he lucks out because Dallas has two and we are only counting one, and because his own teammate has shown him up in the PG role as well, but is really the starting two.

We don’t want to believe it and I really dislike these players, but both of these guys looked significantly better in their short stints this season as well:

Injured (2)
Morant, Ball



On a game by game basis I’d understand the argument for any of this next group over Garland this year too:

The Debateables (5)
White, Cunningham, Russell, VanVleet, McCollum

Talent wise, there’s no reason he shouldn’t be considered a top 10 PG. His continued reliance on a play style that isn’t working, either through stubbornness or lack of ability to play any differently has moved him down my personal rankings significantly. He just got outplayed twice in a week by Terry Rozier for crying out loud.

I don’t know man. I’m in the group that is really coming around to the guy we are counting on to be our floor general being a major cause of the issues. The night and day difference in the way the team played in games that Mitchell ran the show is something I just can’t ignore or try to explain away by schedule.

The sample size is getting larger and larger, and I was totally one of those guys who refused to believe that Garland wasn’t the future.

I don’t know the answer, but it sure seems like DG not being able to figure it out consistently is the problem.


Edit: I found this ranking online that puts the tiers pretty damn closely to mine.

Futuredome said:

except that comparison does not work. Garland has doubled produced Waiters ever did his last 2 years. Down years happen. I am sure the Cavs new staff and Garlands people will sit down and look went wrong internally, what went wrong outside his control and put together a plan.

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Ever the garland optimist. Keep it up, might be the only thread we have

CavsKermit said:

I still think that the Mavs have a puncher's chance, but Kyrie has played next to four of the best point-forwads in the modern NBA: LBJ, Durant, Harden, and now Luka. Every other elite scorer in a PG body would have killed for those opportunities in his career. The fact that he's made it work exactly one time, with best player of his generation, isn't great.

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I agree.

And yet, that’s the guy we’re comparing Darius Garland to as a means to say everything is gonna be alright.

“They played harder than us,” Darius Garland told cleveland.com. “We’re exhausted. That’s what it is. This month has been really tough for us for real. It’s been brutal. Just fighting with what we’ve got right now.”


This quote if from Fedor’s follow-up column to the recap of last night’s game.

What exactly does Darius Garland have to be exhausted from ? He‘s only played 47 games out of 71, only played 22 minutes last night and his minutes were ramped up slowly and carefully monitored upon his reinsertion into the lineup. Evan Mobley has played in only 39 games out of 71…..only 4 in March with 35 minutes, 28, 23 and 21 minutes played all month.

These guys are getting paid multi-millions of dollars and access to the best therapy and conditioning and while March has 17 games, November had 13 and we’ve had 3 mini-breaks throughout the year— in-season tournament, Paris trip and the All Star break.

The above quote from Garland shows just how mentally weak that dude is.

You just turned 24 dude. Quit acting like you're 'exhausted' when you have played just over half of the regular season games.

Cassity14 said:

I agree.

And yet, that’s the guy we’re comparing Darius Garland to as a means to say everything is gonna be alright.

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They're different players. Kyrie is an elite scorer but a meh PG. He's at his best when he has someone else tasked with running the offense and he can just focus on getting a bucket.

B Mac said:

I think it’s a lot closer than any of us want it to be. Putting them together in groupings (all of these guys are their teams starting PG):

Elite (3)
Curry, Luka (or Kyrie down a couple tiers), SGA

All Stars (6)
Haliburton, Brunson, Lillard, Booker, Maxey, Young,

Should Have Been All Stars (2)
Fox, Murray

Above Average (2)
Harden, Holiday

So that’s an easy 13, and he lucks out because Dallas has two and we are only counting one, and because his own teammate has shown him up in the PG role as well, but is really the starting two.

We don’t want to believe it and I really dislike these players, but both of these guys looked significantly better in their short stints this season as well:

Injured (2)
Morant, Ball



On a game by game basis I’d understand the argument for any of this next group over Garland this year too:

The Debateables (5)
White, Cunningham, Russell, VanVleet, McCollum

Talent wise, there’s no reason he shouldn’t be considered a top 10 PG. His continued reliance on a play style that isn’t working, either through stubbornness or lack of ability to play any differently has moved him down my personal rankings significantly. He just got outplayed twice in a week by Terry Rozier for crying out loud.

I don’t know man. I’m in the group that is really coming around to the guy we are counting on to be our floor general being a major cause of the issues. The night and day difference in the way the team played in games that Mitchell ran the show is something I just can’t ignore or try to explain away by schedule.

The sample size is getting larger and larger, and I was totally one of those guys who refused to believe that Garland wasn’t the future.

I don’t know the answer, but it sure seems like DG not being able to figure it out consistently is the problem.


Edit: I found this ranking online that puts the tiers pretty damn closely to mine.

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This is what I mean by Cavs fans being engaged in the-grass-is-always-greener thinking. If the knock on Garland is that his stats are down, then why is Dame, whose numbers worse than Garland's on that list? For that matter, why aren't you factoring in Haliburton's post all-star break collapse.

If the knock on Garland is his team's performance with him at helm of a depleted roster, then why are Trae, Maxey, or Kyrie without Luka, on the list?

People seem to be factoring in the surrounding circumstances for those other players and giving them the benefit of the doubt while insisting that Garland just win anyway..How many of those players could you have subbed onto the Cavs team that took the floor last night and produced a substantially better result? Against that ball pressure with either Martin and/or Butler on them and no real outlet other than Allen?

Neither the debatables nor injured are close IMO.

Pierre Pan said:

“They played harder than us,” Darius Garland told cleveland.com. “We’re exhausted. That’s what it is. This month has been really tough for us for real. It’s been brutal. Just fighting with what we’ve got right now.”

Cavs ‘exhausted’ after brutal, injury-filled month

Following the worst loss of the season — a 121-84 lifeless laugher against the Miami Heat — the heavy-legged Cavs looked beaten and drained.

www.cleveland.com

This quote if from Fedor’s follow-up column to the recap of last night’s game.

What exactly does Darius Garland have to be exhausted from ? He‘s only played 47 games out of 71, only played 22 minutes last night and his minutes were ramped up slowly and carefully monitored upon his reinsertion into the lineup. Evan Mobley has played in only 39 games out of 71…..only 4 in March with 35 minutes, 28, 23 and 21 minutes played all month.

These guys are getting paid multi-millions of dollars and access to the best therapy and conditioning and while March has 17 games, November had 13 and we’ve had 3 mini-breaks throughout the year— in-season tournament, Paris trip and the All Star break.

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It's pretty tiring being tasked with carrying the offense for a depleted roster against good defensive teams. Also, the post all star break has had several back-to-back games and/or 5 games in 7 nights stretches. The Cavs as a team were pretty washed after a six game series against the Knicks.