Darius Kinnard Garland

Bob_The_Cat · Mar 25, 2024

CavsKermit said:
I still think that the Mavs have a puncher's chance, but Kyrie has played next to four of the best point-forwads in the modern NBA: LBJ, Durant, Harden, and now Luka. Every other elite scorer in a PG body would have killed for those opportunities in his career. The fact that he's made it work exactly one time, with best player of his generation, isn't great.

Perhaps it just points to a smallish PG who isn’t a very good defender not actually being that valuable to winning in the playoffs? When you look at that chart @B Mac posted, there’s literally like 2 or 3 guys max that were the best or 2nd best player on teams that made deep playoff runs.

Curry is the exception to the rule and he’s more like a SG anyway. He’s also like 6’3”/6’4”. The interesting alternative career arc would be Curry without Green to facilitate.

Cassity14 · Mar 25, 2024

CavsKermit said:
They're different players. Kyrie is an elite scorer but a meh PG. He's at his best when he has someone else tasked with running the offense and he can just focus on getting a bucket.

Again, I agree. I typed the exact same thing a page back and was told, “it ain’t that deep.”

Kouki · Mar 25, 2024

CavsKermit said:
This is what I mean by Cavs fans being engaged in the-grass-is-always-greener thinking. If the knock on Garland is that his stats are down, then why is Dame, whose numbers worse than Garland's on that list? For that matter, why aren't you factoring in Haliburton's post all-star break collapse.

If the knock on Garland is his team's performance with him at helm of a depleted roster, then why are Trae, Maxey, or Kyrie without Luka, on the list?

People seem to be factoring in the surrounding circumstances for those other players and giving them the benefit of the doubt while insisting that Garland just win anyway..How many of those players could you have subbed onto the Cavs team that took the floor last night and produced a substantially better result? Against that ball pressure with either Martin and/or Butler on them and no real outlet other than Allen?

Neither the debatables nor injured are close IMO.

???????????????????????

Like do you want to go one-by-one?

Damien Lillard has been in the league 11 years, has a career average of 25/7/4, 37% 3P on 8.4 attempts/game, just last year averaged 32/7

Yeah his numbers are "down" this year, that will happen when you join a team with a top 3-5 player. But he is still averaging 6 more points, more assists, more 3PM, more rebounds, and fewer turnovers per game.

His AVERAGE career offensive win share is 7.6, with a high of 10.9 which BTW was #1 in the league. Garland's average is 2.2 and this year will bring that down, with his highest being 4.5. Lillard career average WS/48 0.18, Garland 0.08

He's been in the playoffs, he's hit huge shots, he's carried an entire franchise for a decade.

You are wondering why he is higher on the list than Garland?

Literally every single stat will tell you why he is higher on the list, and he's been doing it for 12 years. Garland hasn't done shit.

If anything YOU are cherry-picking reasons for why some of those guys shouldn't be higher than Garland.

76ers might not be winning without Embiid just like Cavs aren't winning without Spida but Maxey is a substantially better offensive player.

Hawks suck whomever is playing but Trae is still way more gifted offensively than Garland right now. Career average of basically 26 and 10. Does he suck ever worse defensively? Yes, but his offense is elite status, and neither are actually changing the game defensively anyways.

Kyrie...I mean pretty f'ing obvious, similar story to Dame, he is way better, has done it for longer, hit one of the biggest shots in NBA history. Leads all guards in NBA in clutch +/-. DG by the way is around the 70th. And there's only six guards with a worse FG% in the clutch than Garland.

Hali hype got a little out of hand for sure but let's see how he responds. His pre-ASG numbers are way better than anything Garland has done over the last two seasons, oh and also he's a 6'5 PG.

This Garland right now is a pretty mediocre player, he is an average PG, and a net negative in the clutch - I'm not going to spend time looking at all the other players' clutch stats but I'm guessing Garland doesn't fare well.

We know he is better than this and when he's playing up to his standards he's in the tier 2 conversation. That Garland is 21-22 post ASB Garland who averaged 25 and 10.

Soar · Mar 25, 2024

Bob_The_Cat said:
Perhaps it just points to a smallish PG who isn’t a very good defender not actually being that valuable to winning in the playoffs? When you look at that chart @B Mac posted, there’s literally like 2 or 3 guys max that were the best or 2nd best player on teams that made deep playoff runs.

Curry is the exception to the rule and he’s more like a SG anyway. He’s also like 6’3”/6’4”. The interesting alternative career arc would be Curry without Green to facilitate.

When I was watching the game the other day one thing that really stuck out me was how small Garland looked.Like he’s not not an imposing presence out there at all.

I feel like if a guy that small is your first, second or third option, they have to be truly great at something.

Kyrie can create and score at will.
CP3 was truly great at assists
Curry is the best shooter in NBA history

Just a few similar examples .

I don’t see Garland as being truly great at anything. Like he’s good to very good at a a lot of stuff but he doesn’t have that X factor skill.

B Mac · Mar 25, 2024

CavsKermit said:
This is what I mean by Cavs fans being engaged in the-grass-is-always-greener thinking. If the knock on Garland is that his stats are down, then why is Dame, whose numbers worse than Garland's on that list? For that matter, why aren't you factoring in Haliburton's post all-star break collapse.

If the knock on Garland is his team's performance with him at helm of a depleted roster, then why are Trae, Maxey, or Kyrie without Luka, on the list?

People seem to be factoring in the surrounding circumstances for those other players and giving them the benefit of the doubt while insisting that Garland just win anyway..How many of those players could you have subbed onto the Cavs team that took the floor last night and produced a substantially better result? Against that ball pressure with either Martin and/or Butler on them and no real outlet other than Allen?

Neither the debatables nor injured are close IMO.

Other's have already responded better than I could have, but I echo their sentiments. I believe you are the one cherry picking stats here by not acknowledging Lillard adjustment to a new team, Haliburton's injury, etc... and it seems you are perhaps afraid to admit what Garland not being the guy we thought he was going to be might actually mean.

You play with the hand you are dealt obviously. Trying to debate who is better with everyone having a full deck is pointless, because there will never be a season when that is the case. It's why I almost left out, and probably should have left out, the two injured guys from the list, but I was also trying to reason that I could see the argument if people view Garland as a below average starter.

Garland has not been good with what he's had to adjust to this season, and that sample size is growing larger by the day. I dont think acknowledging that makes any of us "grass is always greener" types just as much as calling people who are making nonstop excuses "homer" types.

To answer your question about how many of those guys could have produced a substantially better result? I'm taking Curry, Luka, SGA, Brunson, Mitchell, Irving, Lillard, Booker, Fox, and Murray for sure. I'm probably taking Trae and Holiday as well. I'm not sold on Haliburton or Maxey being difference makers just yet. But, I believe PG is one of the top two most important positions on the court, and the good ones can completely change the outlook of a game. As of right now, I dont believe Garland is one of the good ones this season.

inliner311 · Mar 25, 2024

I think Garland could be a very good PG but his development has been held back by JBB. I think if he was coached by someone who was more offensive minded, Garland could have developed and picked up a wide and complex offense. I think he is best as a facilitator and has the potential to have a real high basketball IQ.

I just don't think he was exposed to and challenged to run different offenses at the NBA level. If some of the stuff he was running was more complex early on, I think he would be further along now with his overall court vision.

I think we are just seeing that JBB wasn't the coach to really develop talent beyond a certain level. JBB isn't well rounded enough as a coach to develop well rounded players. Garland and Mobley had the best coaching before entering the NBA of the players we drafted, their base was better than anyone else. I think that's a big reason why they have gotten to the level they have.

foucault87 · Mar 25, 2024

DG has been capped by JBB just like Mobley. We need to overhaul everything

CleveRocks · Mar 25, 2024

The league has become more permissive of bully ball, for example the edwards drive on levert where he pushes Caris with his forearm four or five times moving toward the basket..

Orlando is benefitting from Blanchero and Wagner, from this. But it weakens pure skill players like Garland or even Levert, as defensively they cannot stand thier ground.. We are weaker 1 through five unless we are playing Okoro Wade, TT , or Morris. Strus can hold his own and George's to the extent his opponent has relatively poor handles..

This off season we need to consider where the league is going when we shuffle the deck...

B Mac · Mar 25, 2024

foucault87 said:
DG has been capped by JBB just like Mobley. We need to overhaul everything

I have lost count of the amount of times I've seen JBB emphatically wave his arms at DG while yelling "Push it! Push it!" and then muttering some f bombs after he storms back a few steps.

DG likes to play slow and he likes to pound the air out of the ball. This is how talented ball dominant ISO players learn how to play growing up. I havent seen a thing to suggest that this is the way that JB wants him to play, and have actually seen, read, and heard quite a bit of the opposite.

JB aint the long term guy, but I also refuse to wash away the sins of this team all on JB's shortcomings either. Especially when Ive seen direct evidence that he is trying to avoid what DG continues to fall into.

There's a reason why the ball was moving, the offense looked better, and the team was blowing teams away when Mitchell was running the point. JB's offense didnt change during that stretch, the head of the snake did.

CavsKermit · Mar 25, 2024

B Mac said:
Other's have already responded better than I could have, but I echo their sentiments. I believe you are the one cherry picking stats here by not acknowledging Lillard adjustment to a new team, Haliburton's injury, etc... and it seems you are perhaps afraid to admit what Garland not being the guy we thought he was going to be might actually mean.

You play with the hand you are dealt obviously. Trying to debate who is better with everyone having a full deck is pointless, because there will never be a season when that is the case. It's why I almost left out, and probably should have left out, the two injured guys from the list, but I was also trying to reason that I could see the argument if people view Garland as a below average starter.

Garland has not been good with what he's had to adjust to this season, and that sample size is growing larger by the day. I dont think acknowledging that makes any of us "grass is always greener" types just as much as calling people who are making nonstop excuses "homer" types.

To answer your question about how many of those guys could have produced a substantially better result? I'm taking Curry, Luka, SGA, Brunson, Mitchell, Irving, Lillard, Booker, Fox, and Murray for sure. I'm probably taking Trae and Holiday as well. I'm not sold on Haliburton or Maxey being difference makers just yet. But, I believe PG is one of the top two most important positions on the court, and the good ones can completely change the outlook of a game. As of right now, I dont believe Garland is one of the good ones this season.

See, I see just the opposite happening. Dame is adjusting to a new team so his bad play doesn't count. But Garland trying to make something out of nothing without all of Mitchell, Strus, and Wade is no excuse. Garland is actually playing better than Dame and Garland has no one near the caliber of Giannis in the lineup.

Injuries are just an excuse with Garland, but they're somehow a valid excuse for guys like Maxey and Trae whose teams are also playing poorly or even worse.

In terms of the guys you believe would be up for the challenge, Brunson imploded against the Heat when they tilted their defense towards him in the playoffs. Maybe DDV will be enough to stop it from happening this season, but that's why the Knicks went out and got him. Mitchell struggled against the Knicks last playoffs and that was with Grimes and Hart on him, not O.G. Derrick White is able to frustrate Mitchell.

The entire purpose behind having Mitchell and Garland on the same roster is you can't tilt towards both of them. You can't assign your best defender to both of them. If we get to the playoffs and the defense tilts towards Mitchell, then Garland better deliver, but that's the test. It's not to fulfill some mythology about great players leading crap rosters by themselves against good playoff teams.

On that note, the Warriors lost back-to-back play-in games with only Curry as an offensive threat three years back. LBJ has missed the playoffs how many times without a healthy AD?

Irving carrying a team by himself is just people ignoring the evidence of what's happened when he's been asked to do that. At no point in his career has Irving been able to beat good teams without an All NBA player next to him. Dame hasn't won a playoff game in years. Fans are just assuming that the 28 year old version of Dame is going to appear once the playoffs start.

At his peak, Jrue was a good, but not great offensive PG. He was a great POA defender. There's been some some slippage over the years on the defensive end culminating in the Bucks first round out, which is why they moved him for Dame. He's in a perfect situation now as he only has to guard the second best player and the Celtic have three offensive threats to carry the load. He's, at best, the 4th option now.

The Kings were a 2 seed last year and a first round out. The Kings were an annual lottery team with Fox leading the charge before Sabonis arrived. The Nugget begin and end with Jokic. While Jokic has shown he can win without Murray, Murray has never shown he can win without Jokic. SGA would be entirely dependent on the officiating against the Heat. He'd either live at the line, or he'd struggle mightly.

Booker and Luka are top 5 players.

B Mac · Mar 25, 2024

CavsKermit said:
See, I see just the opposite happening. Dame is adjusting to a new team so his bad play doesn't count. But Garland trying to make something out of nothing without all of Mitchell, Strus, and Wade is no excuse. Garland is actually playing better than Dame and Garland has no one near the caliber of Giannis in the lineup.

Injuries are just an excuse with Garland, but they're somehow a valid excuse for guys like Maxey and Trae whose teams are also playing poorly or even worse.

In terms of the guys you believe would be up for the challenge, Brunson imploded against the Heat when they tilted their defense towards him in the playoffs. Maybe DDV will be enough to stop it from happening this season, but that's why the Knicks went out and got him. Mitchell struggled against the Knicks last playoffs and that was with Grimes and Hart on him, not O.G. Derrick White is able to frustrate Mitchell.

The entire purpose behind having Mitchell and Garland on the same roster is you can't tilt towards both of them. You can't assign your best defender to both of them. If we get to the playoffs and the defense tilts towards Mitchell, then Garland better deliver, but that's the test. It's not to fulfill some mythology about great players leading crap rosters by themselves against good playoff teams.

On that note, the Warriors lost back-to-back play-in games with only Curry as an offensive threat three years back. LBJ has missed the playoffs how many times without a healthy AD?

Irving carrying a team by himself is just people ignoring the evidence of what's happened when he's been asked to do that. At no point in his career has Irving been able to beat good teams without an All NBA player next to him. Dame hasn't won a playoff game in years. Fans are just assuming that the 28 year old version of Dame is going to appear once the playoffs start.

At his peak, Jrue was a good, but not great offensive PG. He was a great POA defender. There's been some some slippage over the years on the defensive end culminating in the Bucks first round out, which is why they moved him for Dame. He's in a perfect situation now as he only has to guard the second best player and the Celtic have three offensive threats to carry the load. He's, at best, the 4th option now.

The Kings were a 2 seed last year and a first round out. The Kings were an annual lottery team with Fox leading the charge before Sabonis arrived. The Nugget begin and end with Jokic. While Jokic has shown he can win without Murray, Murray has never shown he can win without Jokic. SGA would be entirely dependent on the officiating against the Heat. He'd either live at the line, or he'd struggle mightly.

Booker and Luka are top 5 players.

I've been meaning to ask for a few posts here... What stats/metrics are you using to determine that Garland is outplaying Lillard?

Garland
PPG 18.5
FG% .450
3% .368
AST 6.2
REB 2.5
TO 3.1
STL 1.2
BLK 0.1
PER 14.6
WS 2.4
DWS 1.8
VORP 0.5
LEBRON 0.25

Lillard
PPG 24.4
FG% .428
3% .360
AST 7.0
REB 4.4
TO 2.6
STL 1.0
BLK 0.2
PER 20.1
WS 7.4
DWS 1.8
VORP 2.6
LEBRON 2.68

Aside from shooting a slightly better percentage and .2 less steals per game, Dame has Darius beat handedly in every other category I can think of to look at.

CavsKermit · Mar 25, 2024

duplicate

CavsKermit · Mar 25, 2024

Kouki said:
???????????????????????

Like do you want to go one-by-one?

Damien Lillard has been in the league 11 years, has a career average of 25/7/4, 37% 3P on 8.4 attempts/game, just last year averaged 32/7

Yeah his numbers are "down" this year, that will happen when you join a team with a top 3-5 player. But he is still averaging 6 more points, more assists, more 3PM, more rebounds, and fewer turnovers per game.

His AVERAGE career offensive win share is 7.6, with a high of 10.9 which BTW was #1 in the league. Garland's average is 2.2 and this year will bring that down, with his highest being 4.5. Lillard career average WS/48 0.18, Garland 0.08

He's been in the playoffs, he's hit huge shots, he's carried an entire franchise for a decade.

You are wondering why he is higher on the list than Garland?

Literally every single stat will tell you why he is higher on the list, and he's been doing it for 12 years. Garland hasn't done shit.

If anything YOU are cherry-picking reasons for why some of those guys shouldn't be higher than Garland.

76ers might not be winning without Embiid just like Cavs aren't winning without Spida but Maxey is a substantially better offensive player.

Hawks suck whomever is playing but Trae is still way more gifted offensively than Garland right now. Career average of basically 26 and 10. Does he suck ever worse defensively? Yes, but his offense is elite status, and neither are actually changing the game defensively anyways.

Kyrie...I mean pretty f'ing obvious, similar story to Dame, he is way better, has done it for longer, hit one of the biggest shots in NBA history. Leads all guards in NBA in clutch +/-. DG by the way is around the 70th. And there's only six guards with a worse FG% in the clutch than Garland.

Hali hype got a little out of hand for sure but let's see how he responds. His pre-ASG numbers are way better than anything Garland has done over the last two seasons, oh and also he's a 6'5 PG.

This Garland right now is a pretty mediocre player, he is an average PG, and a net negative in the clutch - I'm not going to spend time looking at all the other players' clutch stats but I'm guessing Garland doesn't fare well.

We know he is better than this and when he's playing up to his standards he's in the tier 2 conversation. That Garland is 21-22 post ASB Garland who averaged 25 and 10.

Thank you for making my point. Dame, et. al., are being afforded the benefit of the doubt based on their overall career numbers with both injured and healthy rosters (and against good and bad teams). Garland is being judged solely on his performance this season the lion's share of which comes with key guys out and against the toughest parts of the schedule.

Not for nothing, but Dame, Trae and Maxey are just taking more shots to get to those higher point totals. If fans want him to take more shots, say so.

CavsKermit · Mar 25, 2024

B Mac said:
I've been meaning to ask for a few posts here... What stats/metrics are you using to determine that Garland is outplaying Lillard?

Garland
PPG 18.5
FG% .450
3% .368
AST 6.2
REB 2.5
TO 3.1
STL 1.2
BLK 0.1
PER 14.6
WS 2.4
DWS 1.8
VORP 0.5
LEBRON 0.25

Lillard
PPG 24.4
FG% .428
3% .360
AST 7.0
REB 4.4
TO 2.6
STL 1.0
BLK 0.2
PER 20.1
WS 7.4
DWS 1.8
VORP 2.6
LEBRON 2.68

Aside from shooting a slightly better percentage and .2 less steals per game, Dame has Darius beat handedly in every other category I can think of to look at.

Dame's higher point totals are coming off of more attempts. Darius, despite having the entire defense titled against him is still shooting more efficiently.

What do you think happens to the assist numbers if Darius got to play alongside Giannis and Dame had to play alongside Niang, Okoro, and LeVert? They were tied only a few games ago. Hell, what do you think happens to all those numbers? Dame was asked to carry the Blazers before he was traded and the result was the Blazers drafting Sharpe and Scoot.

Pierre Pan · Mar 25, 2024

B Mac said:
I have lost count of the amount of times I've seen JBB emphatically wave his arms at DG while yelling "Push it! Push it!" and then muttering some f bombs after he storms back a few steps.

DG likes to play slow and he likes to pound the air out of the ball. This is how talented ball dominant ISO players learn how to play growing up. I havent seen a thing to suggest that this is the way that JB wants him to play, and have actually seen, read, and heard quite a bit of the opposite.

JB aint the long term guy, but I also refuse to wash away the sins of this team all on JB's shortcomings either. Especially when Ive seen direct evidence that he is trying to avoid what DG continues to fall into.

There's a reason why the ball was moving, the offense looked better, and the team was blowing teams away when Mitchell was running the point. JB's offense didnt change during that stretch, the head of the snake did.

Agree 100%. I‘ve repeatedly stated similar sentiments during Game Day threads ever since Garland has returned often to the derision of 2 or 3 holdout posters. Like yourself, I‘ve seen JBB implore DG to push the pace but he just can’t help himself; it becomes more apparent when he’s been on the floor for 6+ minute stretches and at end of quarters. It’s just so frustrating when frequently the offense reverts to a snail’s pace when the exact opposite has had success earlier in said quarters/games.

Not that I’m a JBB fan by any stretch, but he has tried to clip Garland’s wings and have Okoro or LeVert bring the ball up in some recent stretches, especially when full court pressure on Garland throws him completely out of sync.

Darius Kinnard Garland

What is Darius Garland's Ceiling?

One Time All-Star

Occasional All-Star

5-6 Time All-Star

Perennial All-Star

An All-NBA Team or Two

Perennial All-NBA Teamer

Occasional MVP Candidate

Perennial MVP Candidate

MVP, Baby!

Being Jim Chones

Gold Star Member

Gold Star Member

Kouki, Not Cookie.

Hall-of-Famer

Tonight's the night.

Hall-of-Famer

All-Star

There go the Cavs!

Tonight's the night.

NBA Starter

Tonight's the night.

NBA Starter

NBA Starter

NBA Starter

Hall-of-Famer

Rubber Rim Job Podcast Video

Rubber Rim Job Podcast Spotify