Early 22 GM Thread! (Trade Ideas here)

As the GM, yet another thing I am focusing on is team defense to go along with our pitching. I love maximizing run suppression.

The team I've watched this year stinks defensively. Part of that is because of all the moving around of players. Part of that is because we have some bad defensive players. I also see a advantage we can have over Chicago.

Chicago's defense is just plain awful, ranking 12th in the league, while ours ranks 9th...which is the worst defense we have put on the field since 2014. Since that time, we have ranked in the top two twice, and all but once in the top five. The decisions I make will be partially aimed at returning this team to a better than average to elite defense.

I've already decided to bring back Berto, but at a reduced cost, because in this org, elite defense and the handling of pitching is what matters most for the catchers. I've already addressed CF by bringing in Straw.

I'm not watching Harold butcher everything in sight anymore. I'm not asking Amed to play multiple positions. And my other MIF will play above average defense. Its Gimenez job to lose.

The corner OFs I'm focusing on in trade are ones who can also handle a glove and hit cutoff men, in addition to hitting a baseball.

I'm tired of watching half players...and if I can help it, I'm not watching it anymore. My wish list is colored by that desire.

I’m hoping these will be our starters by July:

C - Hedges/Lavastida
1B - Bradley
2B - Arias
3B - Ramirez
SS - Gimenez
LF - Rosario
CF - Straw
RF - Jones
DH - Reyes

SP
1. Bieber
2. McKenzie
3. Civale
4. Quantrill
5. Plesac

Derek said:

I’m hoping these will be our starters by July:

C - Hedges/Lavastida
1B - Bradley
2B - Arias
3B - Ramirez
SS - Gimenez
LF - Rosario
CF - Straw
RF - Jones
DH - Reyes

SP
1. Bieber
2. McKenzie
3. Civale
4. Quantrill
5. Plesac

Click to expand...

Do you see us making any type of big trade? Naylor in Columbus then?

sportscoach said:

Do you see us making any type of big trade? Naylor in Columbus then?

Click to expand...

I’m not convinced he’ll be healthy by then. Maybe he slots into LF whenever they move on from Amed (unless they consider Amed an extension candidate).

I’ll be surprised if we bring in many main roster players from outside the organization whether it’s via trade or free agency.

Obviously, we’ll have some NRI, but I imagine guys already in the organization will get an extended opportunity to fill any perceived holes on the roster.

I do not think this FO is planning on another year of extended tryouts while wasting another year of very good pitching and Jose.

They don't give out trophies for having the youngest team in baseball two years in a row.

The SOP for a FO with a very young team is that once it has a solid core, it adds to it from outside to turn promise into fulfillment.

Chicago did it once they had a core established. Detroit will do it this winter. And so will the Guardians.

We are two players away from being a very good baseball team in 2022, and they aren't playing in Columbus.

CATS44 said:

I do not think this FO is planning on another year of extended tryouts while wasting another year of very good pitching and Jose.
........
We are two players away from being a very good baseball team in 2022, and they aren't playing in Columbus.

Click to expand...

@CATS44
I would agree with the statement that I put in bold.
The thing is: the 2 players while not in Columbus were finishing 2021 in AA Akron & each had very good series and key performances in the recently concluded playoffs.

It is not unheard of that a player makes a jump from AA to the majors.
----------------------------------
As for 'who' I am referring to: both players played in the major league spring training games in March 2020 (pre-covid). At that point 1 had 6 games in Low-A ball & the other had topped out at Mahoning Valley. Both players homered during the course of those spring training games..

The player with 6 games in Low A: George Valera
The player who had topped out at Mahoning Valley: Brayan Rocchio

MadThinker88 said:

@CATS44
I would agree with the statement that I put in bold.
The thing is: the 2 players while not in Columbus were finishing 2021 in AA Akron & each had very good series and key performances in the recently concluded playoffs.

It is not unheard of that a player makes a jump from AA to the majors.
----------------------------------
As for 'who' I am referring to: both players played in the major league spring training games in March 2020 (pre-covid). At that point 1 had 6 games in Low-A ball & the other had topped out at Mahoning Valley. Both players homered during the course of those spring training games..

The player with 6 games in Low A: George Valera
The player who had topped out at Mahoning Valley: Brayan Rocchio

Click to expand...

and a couple other guys:

.284/.348/.445 while reducing his K rate from 32 % to 28 % to 24 % over the last three years..
.293/.330/.536 while maintaining his K rate below 20 % over those same three years..

and they're not named george or brayan..

There is this other guy.. Nolan Jones.. that has a chance to make the leap as well..

Thoughts?

MadThinker88 said:

@CATS44
I would agree with the statement that I put in bold.
The thing is: the 2 players while not in Columbus were finishing 2021 in AA Akron & each had very good series and key performances in the recently concluded playoffs.

It is not unheard of that a player makes a jump from AA to the majors.
----------------------------------
As for 'who' I am referring to: both players played in the major league spring training games in March 2020 (pre-covid). At that point 1 had 6 games in Low-A ball & the other had topped out at Mahoning Valley. Both players homered during the course of those spring training games..

The player with 6 games in Low A: George Valera
The player who had topped out at Mahoning Valley: Brayan Rocchio

Click to expand...

Those are the two prospects, along with Freeman, that I have my eye on, but not for 2022, esp not for opening day.

For 2022, we need two significant upgrades in the outfield. One has to be a bridge to Valera. Amed is the bridge to one of the others.

But its wise to remember that some of us were saying the same things a year ago about Miller, Arias, and Jones.

I dont put much store in spring training. I remember too many mirages that meant exactly nothing...and I fell for Allen last spring.

I remember a spring training when Eric Gonzalez tore it up at the plate and played incredible defense all over the diamond. Almost everybody insisted that he should open the season in Cleveland as a starter somewhere in the infield, because he was a sure fire MLB starting shortstop.

It turned out that they were right, but only if they counted Pittsburgh as a MLB team.

CATS44 said:

Those are the two prospects, along with Freeman, that I have my eye on, but not for 2022, esp not for opening day.

For 2022, we need two significant upgrades in the outfield. One has to be a bridge to Valera. Amed is the bridge to one of the others.

But its wise to remember that some of us were saying the same things a year ago about Miller, Arias, and Jones.

I dont put much store in spring training. I remember too many mirages that meant exactly nothing...and I fell for Allen last spring.

I remember a spring training when Eric Gonzalez tore it up at the plate and played incredible defense all over the diamond. Almost everybody insisted that he should open the season in Cleveland as a starter somewhere in the infield, because he was a sure fire MLB starting shortstop.

It turned out that they were right, but only if they counted Pittsburgh as a MLB team.

Click to expand...

This is where we disagree.

I see Amed as the LF next season while a better defender starts at SS..
Take your pick of internal SS options: all are better defenders at SS compared to Amed.

As for starting the year (or waiting to call up), we will need to see what changes happen with the new CBA.

• Is roster manipulation addressed??
• Does the arbitration and free agency process change??

Depending on what changes happen it might force the CLE FO (and our mindsets as fans) to adjust & provide incentive to give younger players a chance sooner then what we are used to..

MadThinker88 said:

@CATS44
I would agree with the statement that I put in bold.
The thing is: the 2 players while not in Columbus were finishing 2021 in AA Akron & each had very good series and key performances in the recently concluded playoffs.

It is not unheard of that a player makes a jump from AA to the majors.
----------------------------------
As for 'who' I am referring to: both players played in the major league spring training games in March 2020 (pre-covid). At that point 1 had 6 games in Low-A ball & the other had topped out at Mahoning Valley. Both players homered during the course of those spring training games..

The player with 6 games in Low A: George Valera
The player who had topped out at Mahoning Valley: Brayan Rocchio

Click to expand...

I think Valera and Rocchio will probably get their crack in 2023 if they can remain healthy and productive through next season.

Jones, Gonzalez (if rostered), and Arias are the fresh faces I see getting extended looks in 2022.

Obviously, Gimenez isn’t a new face, but the first few months of 2022 will likely be his best opportunity to seize an every day role before they move on to other options.

This thread was begun as an exercise for us amateur GMs to explain how we would make all our ideas work.

So far, lots of ideas, critiques, and disagreements, but very little in the make it all work department.

If you want to keep a kid like Gonzalez, how do you make that work?

If you want Chang to make the team, or even be the starting 2B, how do you make that work?

If you want to upgrade any position in order to make the 2022 team significantly better, how do you go about it while managing the roster situation?

Every decision a GM makes has multiple immediate...and long term... consequences that must be managed, and all those consequences come with a cost. What costs as the GM are you willing to pay?

So far, nearly nada.

It was pointed out that this comment might be better served here...as opposed to in the game thread where discussions of possible Plesac deals are misplaced..

So..

There have been dozens of Zach Plesac deals suggested over the last few weeks:

Toronto get Plesac
Guardians get Lourdes Gurriel Jr OF, Reese McGuire C and Gunnar Hoglund P
note: hoglund is recovering from TJS,

Toronto gets Plesac and Angel Martinez
Guardians Lourdes Gurriel Jr OF, Jordan Groshans SS/OF, and Julian Merryweather RP
note: this is a possible trade I posted

Mariners get Plesac, Daniel Johnson OF and Carson Tucker SS
Guardians get Mitch Haniger OF, Harry Ford C and Brandon Williamson LHP/LHRP
note: this is a possible trade I posted

Angels get Plesac
Indians get Jo Adell OF & Max Stassi C (or Austin Warren RHRP)
note: this possible trade has been

Cardinals get Plesac
Guardians get Matthew Liberatore LHP
Note: a net zero deal..

Pirates get Plesac, Karinchak and Gimenez
Guardians get Bryan Reynolds OF
note: two 40 man spots get opened/a lot to give up

Brewers get Plesac and Carson Tucker
Guardians get Garrett Mitchell OF, Mario Feliciano C, and Antoine Kelly LHP/LHRP
note: no immediate help for CLE, but very close

There are about 450 deals where Zach Plesac is included either as the main piece or as an addition. Any trade to either one of the New York teams were excluded from the "sampling" above. Several of these are interesting enough to warrant further exploration.. Some aren't worth the time it took to make the keystokes in posting..

..and everyone already knows that the opinion: ".. the guardians aren't going to make that deal.." exists.. but....

FWiW.. in that same misplaced thread.. the suggestion that the Brewers deal was the most favorable to both the current and future Guardians club beginning in 2022...

Thoughts?..

sportscoach said:

Eh... let's put this argument another way, list the pros and cons in your mind for both players...

Berto

Pros
GG catcher
Knows the pitching staff very well
Plus power and patience at the plate
Rarely has PBs and rarely allows SBs

Cons
Doesn't stay healthy
Only one season of production hitting wise
Cost 7 million in 22 on a cash strapped team

Stassi

Pros
League averagish bat (better than Berto)
Good reciever and framer
Better health record than Berto
Cheaper than Berto

Cons
Can't throw and average blocking the ball
Doesn't know the pitching staff
Overpriced in 22 for his production.

To me that's how I rank these two... Berto is the better defender and knows the staff. Stassi is the better hitter, but in my mind his defense doesn't compare to Berto when he cannot throw out a runner and doesn't stop the ball as well in the dirt. Both are huge cons in my mind...

Your turn to do the pros and cons of these two guys @CDAV45

Click to expand...

This isn't bad Coach. Although stating Stassi "can't throw" isn't accurate. Saying he can't throw as well as Berto in his prime would be accurate. Stassi does a pretty good job blocking balls as well, even if not quite as good as Berto in his prime.

Let me state it this way. Stassi will never be as good defensively as Berto was, but he is pretty good behind the dish and his bat is better to the point that having him in the lineup would be a fairly significant upgrade.

Not knowing the pitching staff is a bit overblown IMO. Hell, Ramos didn't know the staff either and he handled it just fine. Hedges caught more games than Berto so does that give the edge of "knowing the pitching staff" to him?

I was in a hurry in my first response and after rereading it comes across a too snarky, but that wasn't my intent. Sorry for that if that's how you took it. All I was trying to say is that if you look at the last 2 seasons of performance and conclude that Stassi isn't close to being an upgrade over Perez then there likely isn't any stats/info out there to change your mind. When I said you're entitled to your opinion I meant it, an it will be respected by me.

CATS44 said:

We keep ignoring defense and the handling of a pitching staff.

Berto is the best.

Click to expand...

Too bad that's only half the equation. For as good as he is defensively he's just as bad offensively. That could have something to do with being unable to stay on the field, but it's the reality. You accuse others of ignoring defense and handling the pitching staff(which isn't true for me), but you seem to be ignoring the lack of offense that has plagued Cleveland's catchers since Berto's "out of the box" 2019. NL pitchers hit as well as these 2. It's atrocious and it matters even if you don't think so. I will concede that Berto was the best and is still probably one of the best behind the dish, but he's a black hole in the lineup and clogs up the bases when he's on.

I'd be all for resigning Gomes instead, but I doubt that Cleveland would be the only team interested. He'll be expensive again, but he deserves it. I'd pay Gomes $10M/yr before I'd pay Berto $7m, and I think $10M/yr for Gomes is too risky if it's a multi-year deal.

CATS44 said:

As the GM, yet another thing I am focusing on is team defense to go along with our pitching. I love maximizing run suppression.

The team I've watched this year stinks defensively. Part of that is because of all the moving around of players. Part of that is because we have some bad defensive players. I also see a advantage we can have over Chicago.

Chicago's defense is just plain awful, ranking 12th in the league, while ours ranks 9th...which is the worst defense we have put on the field since 2014. Since that time, we have ranked in the top two twice, and all but once in the top five. The decisions I make will be partially aimed at returning this team to a better than average to elite defense.

I've already decided to bring back Berto, but at a reduced cost, because in this org, elite defense and the handling of pitching is what matters most for the catchers. I've already addressed CF by bringing in Straw.

I'm not watching Harold butcher everything in sight anymore. I'm not asking Amed to play multiple positions. And my other MIF will play above average defense. Its Gimenez job to lose.

The corner OFs I'm focusing on in trade are ones who can also handle a glove and hit cutoff men, in addition to hitting a baseball.

I'm tired of watching half players...and if I can help it, I'm not watching it anymore. My wish list is colored by that desire.

Click to expand...

Regardless of how we feel about the C situation and what should be done, we clearly agree that HRam in the OF is a disaster. What little offense he provides simply doesn't overcome his terrible defensive play. I'd rather give it to Mercado. Like I've said before, I prefer a balance. I'm in full accordance with your disdain for "half players".

Speaking of Mercado, do you think he's earned another look over Zimmer, HRam, and Johnson? He'd also be a good platoon partner for Jones and backup CF to give Straw a break.

I know this was said before and is a big if, but if Reyes can come into camp better prepared to play the OF then I think they'll give him a shot. Especially if they can't swing a trade or sign someone. Fundamentally he plays a good OF, but he's a lumbering giant. His goal this offseason should be to become more mobile is the same way Bradley did. I can express how impressed I am with Bobby's mobility. Can Franmil do something similar? I honestly don't know, but if he wants to play more OF then he better get busy with it.

I've grown to really like Amed. I wouldn't ask him to play multiple positions either so he's either our SS or trade bait. Which one do you think he is CATS?

Only thing of "minor" note in the Sunday Night MLBTr chat.. a mention of the Guardians pursuit of a FA: Kyle Schwarber was suggested as being less than $ 15 MM AAV.. The other mention was a poor JRam trade proposal that was shot down by Polishuk..