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inliner311

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If we are to get good again, we will have to get lucky and hit gold through the draft. Your 2 years from now, "sign a big FA" just isn't a real scenario for Cleveland. We have never in our teams history signed a big FA, excluding LeBron for obvious reasons. (unless you consider Bynum a big signing) No big name will sign here. It's just a reality for markets like ours.
I agree that we won't get a big name free agent but I think the landscape of the NBA has change alot since the days when we tried to be free agent players, early in LeBron's career. Players want to be part of a superteam and teams rarely can out that together just thru free agency.

It seems Rich Paul has a good relationship with the Cavs. He gave the Cavs a private workout for Garland. Klutch has increasingly become a big player as an agency in recent years. They know Gilbert will spend.

I could see someone in the Middleton or Tobias Harris level think about coming here if we have a good young core that made the playoffs. We probably would have to over pay but I don't think any team is seen as a bad destination anymore especially if the owner is willing to spend.
 
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sailfish

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I really doubt the Cavs would stretch anyone on the roster. That's just something cheap owners or teams that need cap space for a free agent move do. It makes zero sense for the Cavs to kill Knight as an asset and the future cap space.

Remember luxury tax isn't calculated till the end of the year. Koby can target trades that reduce our overall cap number to stay under the luxury tax. Just waiving JR should give enough room to work with. Really even a bigger trade that brings back less in total of JRs fully guaranteed contract with whoever goes out with him will help to stay out of the luxury tax.
If we don’t want to waive anyone via the stretch provision, aside from waiving JR Smith, the only other option to really get below the luxury tax would be to trade a player into someone else’s cap space. The ONLY player on our roster that other teams would consider absorbing into their space is Kevin Love.

Considering that only true contenders would consider such a move and that the Cavs would want some combination of draft picks and/or young talent in any trade for Love, the market for Love is bound to be quite limited. Boston and the Clippers are two teams that come to mind, as being contenders, having cap space, and having some additional draft picks at their disposal. I tend to doubt that Gilbert would approve a trade of Love to a divisional foe, so that likely exclude Indiana.
 

AllforOne

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The situation with K-Love is a tricky one.

It seems to make the most sense to trade him now while he's at peak value, especially considering we're in asset accumulation mode.

..But at the same time, he's our best player. Wouldn't our rookies benefit greater by playing alongside Kevin Love and learning his habits?

How much better of professionals will Darius, Collin, KPJ, Dylan, etc become playing with Kevin as opposed to his replacement? That's the question. That's where Kevin's value lies within our team for the next few years since chances are we won't be contending. How well can Kevin Love coach?
That's an excellent point. You can't just throw a bunch of young players together and assume they'll grow into a good team; that's just a recipe for rudderless suck. It's probably one of the main reasons Hinkie didn't get to see his Process through in Philly.

If the Cavs trade Love, then they lose their best veteran voice. (And player. Sexton looked much better playing alongside Love than when Love was out; I suspect the same will be true for Garland, Windler, and KPJ.) That may not be the worst thing in the world for next season (we don't want to take any risks of the first rounder conveying), but longer term, it's not ideal.

Coaches can teach only so much. Young players also have to learn by emulating successful veteran players. More is caught than taught.
 

Rich

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I think this offseason will continue to provide opportunities to trade Kevin Love, especially after the first week or two of free agency and teams miss out.

I keep looking at New Orleans, who clearly wants a veteran stretch four to pair with Zion, and Griffin basically put the Kevin Love bat symbol in the sky...

I keep looking at Indiana, who now has Turner, Sabonis, and Bitadze as NBA centers. They have plenty of cap space and could use a legit star to complement Oladipo. They’re a team to watch with the league wide open...

I keep looking at Portland, believing they have a chance in the open West, and deciding to bring Love home...

I keep looking at Charlotte, a team on the cusp of extending Kemba Walker and about to make a flurry of win-now moves...

The reason I say this is that moving Love to a team with some space (like Indiana or New Orleans) would also greatly change our 2019/2020 cap situation.

All of the sudden, we might have more flexibility to use more of our expiring contracts at the deadline to bring back bad money and assets.
Hmm I think Indiana probably only makes sense if they dont pay Bogdanovic. If they do, they wont have that much space and will need to solve their PG hole with what they do have.
 

MoFlo

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Honestly, when you're not a free agent destination but have an owner who's willing to spend $, you should always be looking to collect assets.

Obviously, it won't be to this degree and there will be times when we should cash in on those assets (unlike Boston), but we should always be looking for ways to collect extra draft picks/assets.
 

Bulldog2Buckeye

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Actually, I think some do. That's the reason I started this thread. Some people have expressed the opinion that the Cavs should hang onto all their expiring veterans, then take that cap space next summer and go hunting for FAs.

I think that's a risky plan for a team in a cold, smaller-market Rust Belt city to take (to agree with your second paragraph). Unless there is some other GOAT-type who originally hails from this area and wants to return home ... and I think we already fished that lake dry. I'd rather see them continue to use the entire salary cap, and up to the tax line, to continue churning bad contracts and getting picks/young players in return.
Steph is from Akron and will be a FA soonish (I’m obviously joking). But yeah I think the ideal plan is to get picks and there are LOTS of bad contracts out there from that one offseason where the cap jumped a ton. I think Tristan and Clarkson probably have the most value from an actual basketball standpoint and we shouldn’t have too much trouble moving them if we want to. Tristan’s cap number isn’t terrible and his rebounding is useful to a bunch of good teams (Celtics and warriors to name two).
 

sailfish

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That's an excellent point. You can't just throw a bunch of young players together and assume they'll grow into a good team; that's just a recipe for rudderless suck. It's probably one of the main reasons Hinkie didn't get to see his Process through in Philly.

If the Cavs trade Love, then they lose their best veteran voice. (And player. Sexton looked much better playing alongside Love than when Love was out; I suspect the same will be true for Garland, Windler, and KPJ.) That may not be the worst thing in the world for next season (we don't want to take any risks of the first rounder conveying), but longer term, it's not ideal.

Coaches can teach only so much. Young players also have to learn by emulating successful veteran players. More is caught than taught.
We honestly don’t know how big of a veteran voice Love has on the team. Some guys are vocal and some guys lead by example. Love doesn’t really strike me as a vocal leader.

Channing Frye was making a fraction of what Love did and playing much less and he may have had the same impact on the young guys. While it’s important to have some veterans around, I don’t believe you necessarily have to have a guy making $30 million per year on your team as the veteran voice. That role can come in many different forms and salary slots.

It makes zero sense to hang onto Love as he is one of our most valuable assets and, since he’s turning 31 soon, he’s a depreciating asset at that. Additionally, playing him, when we’re not ready to compete yet, means he will hurt our chances to secure a higher pick in the draft. That may not matter to some, but you have to remember that our 2020 first round pick goes to New Orleans if it falls outside of the top 10.
 

Dog

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Here are some players we might target with a JR-contract dump/ or as part of a Kevin Love trade. They might not all make sense, but I figured I would cast a large net.

West:
DEN: Gary Harris- 3 years at $18 mil
POR: Jusuf Nurkic - 3 years at $13.25 mil
HOU: Clint Capela- 4 years at $15 mil
UTA: Dante Exum- 2 years at $9.6 mil
OKC: Steven Adams- 2 years at $27 mil
OKC: Dennis Schroder- 2 years at 15.5 mil
MIN: Gorgui Dieng- 2 years at 16.3 mil
MEM: Chandler Parsons- 1 year at 25.1 mil
DAL: Tim Hardaway- 2 years at $20 mil
DAL: Courtney Lee- 1 year at $12.7 mil
PHO: Tyler Johnson- 1 year at $19.2 mil
PHO: Josh Jackson- 3 years at $7.2 mil
EAST:
BOS: Gordon Hayward- 2 years at $32.8 mil
ORL: Evan Fournier- 2 years at $17 mil
ORL: Timofey Mozgov- 1 year at $16.7
CHA: Nic Batum- 2 years at $25.5
CHA: Bismack Biyombo- 1 year at $17 mil
CHA: Marvin Williams- 1 year at $15 mil
CHA: Cody Zeller- 1 year at $14.5 mil
CHA: Michael K-G- 1 year at $13 mil
MIA: Hassan Whiteside- 1 year at $27 mil
MIA: Ryan Anderson- 1 year at $21 mil
MIA: James Johnson- 2 years at $15 mil
MIA: Kelly Olynyk- 2 years at $12.7 mil
MIA: Dion Waiters- 2 years at $12 mil
WAS: Ian Mahinmi- 1 year at $15.5 mil
ATL/ CHI: They've got some bad contract guys, but they're in asset accumulation mode like us.

Summary: It feels like Charlotte is the most likely partner, which falls in line with the rumors swirling around. I could see something like JR and Clarkson for Batum and Bridges happening tomorrow. Win/win potential.

Trading Love is harder to gage, because it depends on which teams are gonna make a run at it next season. Perhaps Dallas decides they're a Kevin Love away from contending. Or Denver. Or Houston. There are several workable deals out there, assuming our asking price is a young player with promise + a first rounder.
 

sailfish

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Here are some players we might target with a JR-contract dump/ or as part of a Kevin Love trade. They might not all make sense, but I figured I would cast a large net.

West:
DEN: Gary Harris- 3 years at $18 mil
POR: Jusuf Nurkic - 3 years at $13.25 mil
HOU: Clint Capela- 4 years at $15 mil
UTA: Dante Exum- 2 years at $9.6 mil
OKC: Steven Adams- 2 years at $27 mil
OKC: Dennis Schroder- 2 years at 15.5 mil
MIN: Gorgui Dieng- 2 years at 16.3 mil
MEM: Chandler Parsons- 1 year at 25.1 mil
DAL: Tim Hardaway- 2 years at $20 mil
DAL: Courtney Lee- 1 year at $12.7 mil
PHO: Tyler Johnson- 1 year at $19.2 mil
PHO: Josh Jackson- 3 years at $7.2 mil
EAST:
BOS: Gordon Hayward- 2 years at $32.8 mil
ORL: Evan Fournier- 2 years at $17 mil
ORL: Timofey Mozgov- 1 year at $16.7
CHA: Nic Batum- 2 years at $25.5
CHA: Bismack Biyombo- 1 year at $17 mil
CHA: Marvin Williams- 1 year at $15 mil
CHA: Cody Zeller- 1 year at $14.5 mil
CHA: Michael K-G- 1 year at $13 mil
MIA: Hassan Whiteside- 1 year at $27 mil
MIA: Ryan Anderson- 1 year at $21 mil
MIA: James Johnson- 2 years at $15 mil
MIA: Kelly Olynyk- 2 years at $12.7 mil
MIA: Dion Waiters- 2 years at $12 mil
WAS: Ian Mahinmi- 1 year at $15.5 mil
ATL/ CHI: They've got some bad contract guys, but they're in asset accumulation mode like us.

Summary: It feels like Charlotte is the most likely partner, which falls in line with the rumors swirling around. I could see something like JR and Clarkson for Batum and Bridges happening tomorrow. Win/win potential.

Trading Love is harder to gage, because it depends on which teams are gonna make a run at it next season. Perhaps Dallas decides they're a Kevin Love away from contending. Or Denver. Or Houston. There are several workable deals out there, assuming our asking price is a young player with promise + a first rounder.
Charlotte, OKC, & Miami seem to be the teams most motivated to move salary.

Miami has a lot of big contracts and not alotnof desirable pieces. Additionally, they owe a 2021 unprotected 1st to the Clippers, which makes a deal difficult.

OKC owes a 2020 1st to Philadelphia and a 2022 1st to Atlanta, which makes dealing another pick difficult. However, if they put Steven Adams & Darius Bazley on the table, that’s a very attractive offer IMO.

Charlotte has a bunch of bad contracts and is motivated to move some, so they can re-sign Kemba Walker. They have a young player on an expiring contract in MKG, some nice young talent in Miles Bridges and Malik Monk, and no future first round picks owed. A deal could be worked there, if they were motivated.

Boston, Portland, and the LA Clippers are three other teams that have the assets and possible motivation to make attractive offers for Love.

Utah has the large partially guaranteed contract of Derrick Favors, which would be perfect to utilize in a trade for Love. However, now that they made the trade for Mike Conley, I don’t think they have the assets to pull off such a deal.
 

AllforOne

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Summary: It feels like Charlotte is the most likely partner, which falls in line with the rumors swirling around. I could see something like JR and Clarkson for Batum and Bridges happening tomorrow. Win/win potential.

Trading Love is harder to gage, because it depends on which teams are gonna make a run at it next season. Perhaps Dallas decides they're a Kevin Love away from contending. Or Denver. Or Houston. There are several workable deals out there, assuming our asking price is a young player with promise + a first rounder.
Charlotte is definitely on the short list of teams that could be JR's next home (for about two minutes, until they decline his option; don't bother calling any realtors, JR). As Sailfish said, Miami and OKC are right there too. Washington is a raging dumpster fire, and I have to think they wouldn't mind unloading Ian Mahinmi's deal so that they're not paying too much luxury tax for John Wall to sit. I'd also have to think that Portland would want to get out from under Evan Turner's $18 mil for next season. There are a few other teams, but those are probably the leaders.

And then the focus should shift to dealing guys whose contracts expire in 2020 for players whose deals end in 2021. You've identified most of the prime targets. Dieng. Batum. James Johnson. Olynyk. Waiters (though I'm not sure I want him anywhere near the young Cavs). Hardaway. Zeller. Hayward. Adams. Schroder. Aldridge. Mills. Surely there are deals to be made.

If we're sitting here this time next year with Garland and Sexton looking like future stars ... and Nance and Windler looking like solid rotational players on a good team ... and KPJ having gone through the season without getting suspended or sent home (baby steps) ... and Love still here (or not; let's leave him aside for now) ... and a high lottery pick and then maybe another first-rounder just drafted ... and several additional future picks added to the war chest ... I think we'll have great reason for optimism going forward.
 
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NMCav

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Charlotte, OKC, & Miami seem to be the teams most motivated to move salary.

Miami has a lot of big contracts and not alotnof desirable pieces. Additionally, they owe a 2021 unprotected 1st to the Clippers, which makes a deal difficult.

OKC owes a 2020 1st to Philadelphia and a 2022 1st to Atlanta, which makes dealing another pick difficult. However, if they put Steven Adams & Darius Bazley on the table, that’s a very attractive offer IMO.

Charlotte has a bunch of bad contracts and is motivated to move some, so they can re-sign Kemba Walker. They have a young player on an expiring contract in MKG, some nice young talent in Miles Bridges and Malik Monk, and no future first round picks owed. A deal could be worked there, if they were motivated.

Boston, Portland, and the LA Clippers are three other teams that have the assets and possible motivation to make attractive offers for Love.

Utah has the large partially guaranteed contract of Derrick Favors, which would be perfect to utilize in a trade for Love. However, now that they made the trade for Mike Conley, I don’t think they have the assets to pull off such a deal.
If we trade with CHA, Bridges would have to be involved. Zero room to try and develop Malik Monk when we have Garland, Sexton, and Kevin Porter Jr already to develop. Despite Monks height being taller then Sexton or Garland his wing span is actually the shortest of the three. Miles Bridges makes the most sense as a target from Hornets. Hes a true SF who can play small ball PF and is a sound defender just maddeningly inconsistent offensively.
 

Amherstcavsfan

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Not only did Sexton get better after Kevin Love came back, but I would propose that Sexton never becomes the player that he was at the end of the year if it weren't for the Vets pushing him to become a better player. Now whether or not Sexton does that same thing without the pushing of the vets, I guess we will never know.

What I do know is that Sexton was a different player when he played with guys like Brandon Knight and Kevin Love. With 3 1st round rookies coming to the team, I would say veteran leadership is more valuable now than it has ever been in the history of the team. Guys like Kevin Love, Knight, and Delly are guys you want to rub off on your rookies to instill work ethic and impart their knowledge off on the rest of the young guys.

I understand sometimes assets > vets and other intangible stuff like that. But I really think building the core of the team and the culture of guys who won a title in Cleveland and what it took is simply more important. Guys like Love and Delly should be in Cleveland as along as they want to be. Then they should be given jobs in the organization if they want them, and that includes a guy like Channing Frye, LeBron, JR Smith ect. They paid the price and one of the improbable titles in a generation because of their attitude. We need to harness that culture for a long as possible, San Antonio Spurs style.
 

Bulldog2Buckeye

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Hate to be the bearer of bad news but I find it extremely unlikely that CHA will give up Bridges in a salary dumb considering he’s their most promising young player by a large margin.
 

Lee

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First, I think you have to get under the luxury tax, even if that means waiving JR Smith and Brandon Knight, the latter via the stretch provision.

Second, I think it’s important to be flexible. I don’t think you necessarily have to commit to one strategy or the other. Since the Cavs are in asset accumulation mode, it’s all going to depend on the quality of the incoming asset.

Ideally, you have cap space, which gives you tons of options, as we’ve seen with cap-absorbing deals for Allen Crabbe, Jonathan Simmons, TJ Warren, and Aron Baynes. However, I can’t see the Cavs allowing all of those expiring contracts go without making a few trades. There’s just too much value in expiring contracts nowadays. Besides, you’re basically waving JR Smith, so you can use some of those expiring contracts to take back salaries in trades.

So, in the end, I think we’ll see a combination, rather than one extreme or the other. I think the Cavaliers will waive JR Smith and they very well may waive Brandon Knight, via the stretch provision. That should get them below the luxury tax and give them some much needed financial flexibility. I agree they aren’t ready to attack free agency and try to add some free agents just yet.

I look for them to trade some of those expiring contracts for deals with multiple years remaining, along with an asset. In essence, deals similar to the ones we saw for George Hill and Alec Burks. Since we aren’t ready to compete and won’t be for another 2 to 3 years then I would absolutely trade Kevin Love now. Otherwise, he hurts our chances in the draft lottery and just becomes a depreciating asset.
Waive JR sure, Stretch Knight, no fucking way.

WIth an owner willing to spend, you cant stretch anyone, it kills your cap space for years to come, look at the lakers who are losing 5 mill in cap because of stretching someone.

Make other moves to get under the luxury cap, but we cant stretch anyone, its just a bad move of desperation.
 

benchplayer

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Not only did Sexton get better after Kevin Love came back, but I would propose that Sexton never becomes the player that he was at the end of the year if it weren't for the Vets pushing him to become a better player. Now whether or not Sexton does that same thing without the pushing of the vets, I guess we will never know.

What I do know is that Sexton was a different player when he played with guys like Brandon Knight and Kevin Love. With 3 1st round rookies coming to the team, I would say veteran leadership is more valuable now than it has ever been in the history of the team. Guys like Kevin Love, Knight, and Delly are guys you want to rub off on your rookies to instill work ethic and impart their knowledge off on the rest of the young guys.

I understand sometimes assets > vets and other intangible stuff like that. But I really think building the core of the team and the culture of guys who won a title in Cleveland and what it took is simply more important. Guys like Love and Delly should be in Cleveland as along as they want to be. Then they should be given jobs in the organization if they want them, and that includes a guy like Channing Frye, LeBron, JR Smith ect. They paid the price and one of the improbable titles in a generation because of their attitude. We need to harness that culture for a long as possible, San Antonio Spurs style.
Sexton is gonna get better and better as the spacing gets better
 

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