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2021 NBA Offseason Thread

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@Sir'Dom Pointer @Nathan S

Here is the list of guys who shot 35%+ on 3's last year, and made 1.5+ per game that were listed as either a F or a C on basketball reference:
Paul George
Karl-Anthony Towns
Kawhi Leonard
Danilo Gallinari
Blake Griffin
Tobias Harris
Brook Lopez
Kevin Love

Out of those guys, only George, Love, and Harris also did it last year.

Of those three, only Love did it in 2016-17, and he also did it every other season dating back to 2011-12 (minus 12-13 when he missed almost the entire season)
 
I feel like you're missing my point about 3-point shooting volume here. It's easy to shoot a good percentage from 3 on a few attempts per game. What really adds value is shooting a good percentage at a high volume. Look at where Love stands among the highest volume 3-point shooters last year (can't embed images at the moment, so here's a link). The only bigs in the same neighborhood are Bertans (highly underrated player IMO), and Mirotic (whose NBA career is likely over). Maybe others will catch up in time, but they haven't yet. Put Love in a good offensive system, not the dumpster fire system we had on the Cavs last year, and he could have an enormous impact from the 3-point line.

I'm not missing your point at all. All of the guys have >5 attempts per 36. Some have 6+, some 7+
I did not include players like Meyers Leonard who shoot much less and have much higher 3pt percentage.
The difference to me between 5.5 to 6.5-7 in Love's case is insignificant.
Some players from this list will surely shoot much more 3's this season like Porzingis, Markannen even. And some that are not listed here will probably do much better in that area in the upcoming season.

What adds value to shooting volume is difficulty of shot(efficiency being guard tightly, open, wide open), and play type efficiency as well as frequency.

One player can shoot a lot of open 3's and look like a volume shooter(role players on GSW come to mind), but he does not have as much value as player like Mirotic for example who bombs away 3's on so many playtypes on any team that he is on. It's deceiving just looking at 3PA. Love shoots so many wide open 3's and he does not create much offense other than catch and shoot from those situations which again, lowers his alue to me as a volume shooter.

While Love was efficient in a lot of playtypes, especially with Lebron, he is still not a good shooter coming off screens and/or only attempts them very rarely. Love does not shoot off the dribble, He does not shoot 3's as the Ball Handler,all of that lower his value as a shooter. What Love does is shoot 3's mainly as a spot up shooter with 0 dribbles and mostly when he is wide open.

Volume shooting is great when the player has good gravity in alot of playstyles and Love does not have that. He is mostly a spacer, and is gravity his limited to spot up catch and shoot off the ball that is pretty easy to defend.

I'm not saying that Love can't add volume as a shooter in hand-offs/off-screens, whatever. He just does not do that very often at all and recently when he did attempt them he was not very efficient. Love will never be able to shoot off the dribble though or be efficienct coming off screens. Love needs to be stationary.

And last thing, what was really apparent to me and quite frankly troubled me about Love is that he was not very consistent as a catch and shoot player when wide open. Especially from the corners.
@Sir'Dom Pointer @Nathan S

Here is the list of guys who shot 35%+ on 3's last year, and made 1.5+ per game that were listed as either a F or a C on basketball reference:
Paul George
Karl-Anthony Towns
Kawhi Leonard
Danilo Gallinari
Blake Griffin
Tobias Harris
Brook Lopez
Kevin Love

Out of those guys, only George, Love, and Harris also did it last year.

Of those three, only Love did it in 2016-17, and he also did it every other season dating back to 2011-12 (minus 12-13 when he missed almost the entire season)

Hi Derek, what's up?

Whatever you put in the filter got it wrong.

You are missing Porzingis, Bertans, Barnes, Markannen, Ingles, Marcus Morris

And I totally forgot about Brook, Kawhi, George. Brook Lopez is more dangerous than Love as a shooter right now because he can basically shoot over you. Both Kawhi and George are obviously more diverse shooters. Not even close.

Porzingis will probably shoot 6> 3P a game this season.

I think it's unfair to not include players like Bjelica and several others who are volume shooter , but playing less than 25 minutes a game.
 
I'm not missing your point at all. All of the guys have >5 attempts per 36. Some have 6+, some 7+
I did not include players like Meyers Leonard who shoot much less and have much higher 3pt percentage.
The difference to me between 5.5 to 6.5-7 in Love's case is insignificant.
Some players from this list will surely shoot much more 3's this season like Porzingis, Markannen even. And some that are not listed here will probably do much better in that area in the upcoming season.

What adds value to shooting volume is difficulty of shot(efficiency being guard tightly, open, wide open), and play type efficiency as well as frequency.

One player can shoot a lot of open 3's and look like a volume shooter(role players on GSW come to mind), but he does not have as much value as player like Mirotic for example who bombs away 3's on so many playtypes on any team that he is on. It's deceiving just looking at 3PA. Love shoots so many wide open 3's and he does not create much offense other than catch and shoot from those situations which again, lowers his alue to me as a volume shooter.

While Love was efficient in a lot of playtypes, especially with Lebron, he is still not a good shooter coming off screens and/or only attempts them very rarely. Love does not shoot off the dribble, He does not shoot 3's as the Ball Handler,all of that lower his value as a shooter. What Love does is shoot 3's mainly as a spot up shooter with 0 dribbles and mostly when he is wide open.

Volume shooting is great when the player has good gravity in alot of playstyles and Love does not have that. He is mostly a spacer, and is gravity his limited to spot up catch and shoot off the ball that is pretty easy to defend.

I'm not saying that Love can't add volume as a shooter in hand-offs/off-screens, whatever. He just does not do that very often at all and recentloy when he did attempt them he was not very efficient. Love will never be able to shoot off the dribble though and that


Hi Derek, what's up?

Whatever you put in the filter got it wrong.

You are missing Porzingis, Bertans, Barnes, Markannen, Ingles, Marcus Morris

And I totally forgot about Brook, Kawhi, George. Brook Lopez is more dangerous than Love as a shooter right now because he can basically shoot over you. Both Kawhi and George are obviously more diverse shooters. Not even close.

Porzingis will probably shoot 6> 3P a game this season.

I think it's unfair to not include players like Bjelica and several others who are volume shooter , but playing less than 25 minutes a game.

According to NBA.com, Love went 16/31 on off-the-dribble 3's last season. That's nearly 1 make per game off the dribble, a higher rate than pretty much any big other than Griffin, I think. So your argument that Love will "never be able to shoot off the dribble" doesn't really work. Overall just 68 of his 147 attempts were spot-up attempts, suggesting very good shot diversity from 3 (which is the only way anyone can manage such a high 3-point volume).
 
Hi Derek, what's up?

Whatever you put in the filter got it wrong.

You are missing Porzingis, Bertans, Barnes, Markannen, Ingles, Marcus Morris

And I totally forgot about Brook, Kawhi, George. Brook Lopez is more dangerous than Love as a shooter right now because he can basically shoot over you. Both Kawhi and George are obviously more diverse shooters. Not even close.

Porzingis will probably shoot 6> 3P a game this season.

I think it's unfair to not include players like Bjelica and several others who are volume shooter , but playing less than 25 minutes a game.

For whatever reason, none of those guys showed up until I changed the filter from >1.5 to >1.45. It doesn't make any sense, but the list is more comprehensive now.


It includes 25 guys, although some I would consider wings.

Paul George
Karl-Anthony Towns
Kawhi Leonard
Danilo Gallinari
Blake Griffin
Tobias Harris
Brook Lopez
Jayson Tatum
Kevin Love
PJ Tucker
Marcus Morris
Davis Bertans

Marvin Williams
Harrison Barnes
Nikola Mirotic
Dario Saric
Otto Porter
Justise Winslow
Lauri Markkanen
Robert Covington
TJ Warren
Darius Miller
Bobby Portis
Taurean Waller-Prince
Luke Kornet

In bold are the guys I would actually consider to be bigs
 
According to NBA.com, Love went 16/31 on off-the-dribble 3's last season. That's nearly 1 make per game off the dribble, a higher rate than pretty much any big other than Griffin, I think. So your argument that Love will "never be able to shoot off the dribble" doesn't really work. Overall just 68 of his 147 attempts were spot-up attempts, suggesting very good shot diversity from 3 (which is the only way anyone can manage such a high 3-point volume).

Are you really using NBA.com ? there is no way Love shot 31 threes off the dribble. They are using Pump fake to 1 dribble pull up most likely. Have you seen Love take a few live dribbles/crossover and shoot?

I also think NBA.com uses catch and shoot rather than spot up. Spot up is more general.
 
Are you really using NBA.com ? there is no way Love shot 31 threes off the dribble. They are using Pump fake to 1 dribble pull up most likely. Have you seen Love take a few live dribbles/crossover and shoot?

I also think NBA.com uses catch and shoot rather than spot up. Spot up is more general.
Why doesn't that count as "off the dribble" to you?
 
Are you really using NBA.com ? there is no way Love shot 31 threes off the dribble. They are using Pump fake to 1 dribble pull up most likely. Have you seen Love take a few live dribbles/crossover and shoot?

I also think NBA.com uses catch and shoot rather than spot up. Spot up is more general.

Don't want to get too into the details. The point is that relative to other bigs, he actually has a lot of shot diversity. Most "stretch" bigs can't even do the pump fake - dribble - shoot sequence with any consistency, for instance. To the extent that there are exceptions, they're generally stars (Griffin, Towns, Porzingis) or elite roleplayers (Lopez, Bertans).
 
For whatever reason, none of those guys showed up until I changed the filter from >1.5 to >1.45. It doesn't make any sense, but the list is more comprehensive now.


It includes 25 guys, although some I would consider wings.

Paul George
Karl-Anthony Towns
Kawhi Leonard
Danilo Gallinari
Blake Griffin
Tobias Harris
Brook Lopez
Jayson Tatum
Kevin Love
PJ Tucker
Marcus Morris
Davis Bertans

Marvin Williams
Harrison Barnes
Nikola Mirotic
Dario Saric
Otto Porter
Justise Winslow
Lauri Markkanen
Robert Covington
TJ Warren
Darius Miller
Bobby Portis
Taurean Waller-Prince
Luke Kornet

In bold are the guys I would actually consider to be bigs

Shit, I forgot about so many guys. I'll need to learn how to use a filter.

THat's my whole argument though...there are no bigs or forwards. Let's agree that Love can not play C very well or full time and his defense is nothing to be proud of. You will have better defense at the 4 with Kawhi, PG, Morris, Covington, Williams, Harris, Barnes and most of the Forwards mentioned here. So we are almost strictly talking about offense here. If Love could block shots or switch effectively on the perimeter it would have been a different story. But he does not do that, and while he can switch some, he is by far the worse perimeter defender on this list.

Yeah, Prince, Miller, Warren are strictly wings. Winslow/Porter questionable.
 
Don't want to get too into the details. The point is that relative to other bigs, he actually has a lot of shot diversity. Most "stretch" bigs can't even do the pump fake - dribble - shoot sequence with any consistency, for instance. To the extent that there are exceptions, they're generally stars (Griffin, Towns, Porzingis) or elite roleplayers (Lopez, Bertans).

Fair enough.

In general, what i'm saying is that Love's value will continue to diminish as positionless BB grows and more players shoot the 3. It's happening. Blake Griffin couldn't shoot worth a damn just 1.5 years ago. Brook Lopez too.
 
Fair enough.

In general, what i'm saying is that Love's value will continue to diminish as positionless BB grows and more players shoot the 3. It's happening. Blake Griffin couldn't shoot worth a damn just 1.5 years ago. Brook Lopez too.

Definitely have to keep stepping up your game or get left behind. I still think Kevin could do that, but I guess we'll see. Until last year he was on a very clear upward trajectory as a shooter. Hope he gets back on track this season.
 
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Man a dude his size and already has meniscus issues: that sucks.

Such a talent but ain't looking good
 
Man a dude his size and already has meniscus issues: that sucks.

Such a talent but ain't looking good

It's sad but I called it before the draft. His size and explosiveness will lead to injury issues.

He's a great talent and a great athlete but he has such a weirdly built body that his athetlic ability surpasses his bodies limits. Hes always gonna have some kind of a injury. If he lost 30ish pounds and got around 250 his body would likely hold up longer.
 
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