• Changing RCF's index page, please click on "Forums" to access the forums.

2019 Browns Off Season/Roster Discussion

Do Not Sell My Personal Information
So what is Duke worth? I'd say the Browns are holding out for a 4th rounder. I feel like they are waiting until some starting running back blows out his ACL in camp, allowing Dorsey to deal from a position of leverage.
I think Dorsey is waiting to see if Kareem can make it through the offseason and his suspension without another suspension.
 
I think Dorsey is waiting to see if Kareem can make it through the offseason and his suspension without another suspension.

I don't know if Rosenhaus is going to allow that plan to come together. Maybe Dorsey wanted insurance through Hunt's suspension, but Duke didn't hire Rosenhaus to continue playing the long game.

I've always felt Duke is a little overrated, so I'm cool with moving him as soon as some starting back elsewhere is lost for the season. I wish McKinnon blew out his knee this summer in SF instead of last year, that's a great type of scenario for a Poop Dick trade.
 
Duke being overrated generally has more to do with the under-utilization of his skill-set throughout his career here, IMO.

Heck of an asset. Not overly expensive, just a really good mismatch player who should be utilized properly in this new offense.
 
So what is Duke worth? I'd say the Browns are holding out for a 4th rounder. I feel like they are waiting until some starting running back blows out his ACL in camp, allowing Dorsey to deal from a position of leverage.

My dynasty team is hoping for a Duke trade to Tampa or the Chargers.
 
My dynasty team is hoping for a Duke trade to Tampa or the Chargers.

Funny you mention the Chargers, I'm also hoping for the Melvin Gordon drama to come to a full explosion, Gordon out and Duke in. However, that requires Gordon to be the first domino to fall.

Duke being overrated generally has more to do with the under-utilization of his skill-set throughout his career here, IMO.

Heck of an asset. Not overly expensive, just a really good mismatch player who should be utilized properly in this new offense.

We have a slow news day on our hands, so let me ask:

Was Duke really under-utilized or is this just what he is? In his career, he was usually paired with a bad quarterback. I'll give the Duke supporters that. However, he was also surrounded by terrible play makers. He was option #1, 2 and 3 in offenses, but often took himself out of the drive to take plays off. Maybe all he is going to be is about 100 runs from scrimmage and a receiver/pass protector in passing situations like James White.

As for not overly-expensive, I tend to think his paychecks relative to positional production have become a barrier since it is nearly August and teams have their salaries set for the summer, barring an injury or Mel Gordon hissy fit.
 
Funny you mention the Chargers, I'm also hoping for the Melvin Gordon drama to come to a full explosion, Gordon out and Duke in. However, that requires Gordon to be the first domino to fall.



We have a slow news day on our hands, so let me ask:

Was Duke really under-utilized or is this just what he is? In his career, he was usually paired with a bad quarterback. I'll give the Duke supporters that. However, he was also surrounded by terrible play makers. He was option #1, 2 and 3 in offenses, but often took himself out of the drive to take plays off. Maybe all he is going to be is about 100 runs from scrimmage and a receiver/pass protector in passing situations like James White.

As for not overly-expensive, I tend to think his paychecks relative to positional production have become a barrier since it is nearly August and teams have their salaries set for the summer, barring an injury or Mel Gordon hissy fit.

I mean, its hard to argue that with the targets and chances to make things happen, he consistently has made an impact.

He IS a receiver/passing downs back like James White. That in itself has become incredibly efficient for teams to use throughout the league.

Johnson moves it 9.2 yards with every catch, and catches 77% of the passes thrown to him. But only received 65 targets LY compared to White's 123. 40 rushing attempts at 5 YPC, compared to White's 94 and 4.5 YPC.

That's under-utilization, to me. Even when you assume that his YPC numbers will tick down with added usage, that is not enough touches for the guy given how effective he's been.
 
I don't know if Rosenhaus is going to allow that plan to come together. Maybe Dorsey wanted insurance through Hunt's suspension, but Duke didn't hire Rosenhaus to continue playing the long game.

I've always felt Duke is a little overrated, so I'm cool with moving him as soon as some starting back elsewhere is lost for the season. I wish McKinnon blew out his knee this summer in SF instead of last year, that's a great type of scenario for a Poop Dick trade.

How much can Rosenhaus really influence this though? Media spinning? More asking in response to the “I don’t think Rosenhaus will allow..etc.”

That isn’t to be construed as disputatious but I’m just curious what approach he can take to try more or less forcing something. I can’t think of any reason why Dorsey can’t just take all the time he wants but I can see why it’s important for organizations and prominent agents to maintain good relations.
 
How much can Rosenhaus really influence this though? Media spinning? More asking in response to the “I don’t think Rosenhaus will allow..etc.”

That isn’t to be construed as disputatious but I’m just curious what approach he can take to try more or less forcing something. I can’t think of any reason why Dorsey can’t just take all the time he wants but I can see why it’s important for organizations and prominent agents to maintain good relations.

This is a bigger issue that goes into how owner and player relations are changing all over the NFL. Antonio Brown has Rosenhaus as his representation, and he just forced himself off the Steelers, who have an ownership that is considered amongst the easiest to work with for player and agent concerns. Three years ago, GMs would look over at a trade request from a well paid starter, chuckle, and wait for the player to end their costly holdout. Is Johnson going to do that or play a LeVeon Bell type of hand? Things are changing, and Rosenhaus works with players who have a star mentality.

I mean, its hard to argue that with the targets and chances to make things happen, he consistently has made an impact.

He IS a receiver/passing downs back like James White. That in itself has become incredibly efficient for teams to use throughout the league.

Johnson moves it 9.2 yards with every catch, and catches 77% of the passes thrown to him. But only received 65 targets LY compared to White's 123. 40 rushing attempts at 5 YPC, compared to White's 94 and 4.5 YPC.

That's under-utilization, to me. Even when you assume that his YPC numbers will tick down with added usage, that is not enough touches for the guy given how effective he's been.

I'm not disagreeing with what type of player Duke Johnson is on the field. I have put White out there for a while, along with players like Tevin Coleman and Jerrick McKinnon. Offenses who are ahead of the curve love running backs who play the pass game like Duke Johnson... but along with all those players I just listed, are they underutilized or is that what they provide?

I guess that is the part I disagree with you on. What Duke Johnson provides has been fairly consistent if the quarterback was good or bad, the offensive line was good or bad, the play calling was good or bad. Poop Dick just keeps pulling himself out - chuckle - after bigger plays, and seems to put limits on himself for wear and tear on the more physically taxing jobs of an NFL running back. I feel that's why Dorsey and Kitchens are looking ahead a few months and seeing Duke Johnson elsewhere, despite what is said in the press. Jumping on Hunt and giving a role to Hilliard definitely makes a statement on Duke's ability to provide availability from play to play.
 
This is a bigger issue that goes into how owner and player relations are changing all over the NFL. Antonio Brown has Rosenhaus as his representation, and he just forced himself off the Steelers, who have an ownership that is considered amongst the easiest to work with for player and agent concerns. Three years ago, GMs would look over at a trade request from a well paid starter, chuckle, and wait for the player to end their costly holdout. Is Johnson going to do that or play a LeVeon Bell type of hand? Things are changing, and Rosenhaus works with players who have a star mentality.



I'm not disagreeing with what type of player Duke Johnson is on the field. I have put White out there for a while, along with players like Tevin Coleman and Jerrick McKinnon. Offenses who are ahead of the curve love running backs who play the pass game like Duke Johnson... but along with all those players I just listed, are they underutilized or is that what they provide?

I guess that is the part I disagree with you on. What Duke Johnson provides has been fairly consistent if the quarterback was good or bad, the offensive line was good or bad, the play calling was good or bad. Poop Dick just keeps pulling himself out - chuckle - after bigger plays, and seems to put limits on himself for wear and tear on the more physically taxing jobs of an NFL running back. I feel that's why Dorsey and Kitchens are looking ahead a few months and seeing Duke Johnson elsewhere, despite what is said in the press. Jumping on Hunt and giving a role to Hilliard definitely makes a statement on Duke's ability to provide availability from play to play.

I've gotten obliterated on here before for saying it, but Duke Johnson is one of the best pass-catching backs in the NFL. I hope we hang onto him, at least for now. Because we really don't have an option behind Chubb... or even to spell him at this point.

I wish the front office, coaching staff, and Duke Johnson could all get in agreement about what his role is this season and for the future. If we trade him today, I think it will cost us at least one game this season. For a team looking at the playoffs, that's not worth a conditional fourth rounder.
 
I've gotten obliterated on here before for saying it, but Duke Johnson is one of the best pass-catching backs in the NFL. I hope we hang onto him, at least for now. Because we really don't have an option behind Chubb... or even to spell him at this point.

I doubt I was too aggressive about it, but I think it's obvious Hunt is just a better play for the snaps you sit Chubb, even if Duke Johnson is a good fit for a team looking to pass 70+ percent of the time he is on the field.

Hunt was very impressive as a rookie pass catcher with several long breakaway receptions. His straight line speed is a tick below Duke, but he can run a full route tree. In 2018, he was off to an even better start through eleven games, averaging over 14 yards a reception, but then obviously his season was abruptly cut short.

I think Duke knows Hunt is the better passing game weapon himself, hence the demand to be traded.
 
The problem is that if Hunt looks like Hunt the last eight games of the season, he's going to likely warrant a hefty payday on a long-term deal next year - certainly a risk considering his background and we are already going to be hurting to keep our young talent as it is.

We are already overpaying Duke (11th highest paid RB in the league) but at least we control that contract through 2021. The whole Hunt signing still puzzles me as far as long term planning. While it is certainly a value to have this year at a discount, it still baffles me a bit as to why we signed him from a forward thinking standpoint financially.
 
I doubt I was too aggressive about it, but I think it's obvious Hunt is just a better play for the snaps you sit Chubb, even if Duke Johnson is a good fit for a team looking to pass 70+ percent of the time he is on the field.

Hunt was very impressive as a rookie pass catcher with several long breakaway receptions. His straight line speed is a tick below Duke, but he can run a full route tree. In 2018, he was off to an even better start through eleven games, averaging over 14 yards a reception, but then obviously his season was abruptly cut short.

I think Duke knows Hunt is the better passing game weapon himself, hence the demand to be traded.

I don't think there's a talent evaluator worth his salt out there that agrees with you on this.

"But he can run a full route tree" makes it sound like Duke can't.

I'm not going to dive into this again though. We'll see what happens.
 
A little while ago we were discussing DBU in here...

ESPN released a Position U article today

i


Defensive Back U

With just a few glances at Twitter during the season, you'll see that Florida and LSU players -- current and former -- and their official football team accounts are constantly bombarding the internet with claims of "DBU."

It actually might be college football's best rivalry over the past few years.

Unfortunately for both schools, they have to take a back seat to the real DBU: Ohio State.

Since 1998, Ohio State has 26 all-conference seasons by defensive backs (tops in the country) and six All-American seasons, which ranks second behind that of Alabama and LSU (eight). Since the 1998 season, 30 Buckeyes defensive backs have been drafted, among them 12 first-round picks, including three -- Marshon Lattimore, Malik Hooker and Gareon Conley -- in 2017.

After the Buckeyes, it was a run of SEC teams, with LSU, Alabama and Florida taking spots two through four. -- Edward Aschoff

1. Ohio State
Notable players: Marshon Lattimore, Denzel Ward, Eli Apple, Malcolm Jenkins

2. LSU
Notable players: Patrick Peterson, Tyrann Mathieu, Jamal Adams

3. Alabama
Notable players: Minkah Fitzpatrick, Mark Barron, Ha Ha Clinton-Dix

4. Florida
Notable players: Vernon Hargreaves III, Joe Haden, Reggie Nelson

5. Florida State
Notable players: Jalen Ramsey, Derwin James, Myron Rolle
 
I don't think there's a talent evaluator worth his salt out there that agrees with you on this.

"But he can run a full route tree" makes it sound like Duke can't.

I'm not going to dive into this again though. We'll see what happens.

Huh? Both can be and are true. Don't argue in strawman, it is beneath you.

The difference is Hunt is one the top ten runners with the ball north and south and he's comfortable staying on the field for the whole drive while Duke goes to the sideline for a tea and crumpet break after his runs.

In 2017 as the focal point of the Browns offense, he had some nice receiving yardage totals, but has never averaged what Hunt had been averaging in 2018 per reception in his career. The real way for Duke to prove he is a better passing game weapon than Hunt is to compete for the job... but Duke clearly doesn't want to do that.
 
Huh? Both can be and are true. Don't argue in strawman, it is beneath you.

The difference is Hunt is one the top ten runners with the ball north and south and he's comfortable staying on the field for the whole drive while Duke goes to the sideline for a tea and crumpet break after his runs.

In 2017 as the focal point of the Browns offense, he had some nice receiving yardage totals, but has never averaged what Hunt had been averaging in 2018 per reception in his career. The real way for Duke to prove he is a better passing game weapon than Hunt is to compete for the job... but Duke clearly doesn't want to do that.
Appreciate the discussion. I'm not touching this. My thoughts on both Kareem Hunt and Duke Johnson were already hashed out pretty thoroughly this offseason.

When you bring those stats into the discussion, it's clear we evaluate RB's in a very, very different manner.
 

Rubber Rim Job Podcast Video

Episode 3-13: "Backup Bash Brothers"

Rubber Rim Job Podcast Spotify

Episode 3:11: "Clipping Bucks."
Top