Darius Kinnard Garland

[Cavatt]

Doesn't naturally play with a lot of physicality on that end, and doesn't seem to have the right reflexes/instincts/nose for the ball to make defensive plays. Statistically, this shows up in his rebound/steal/block rates, and is further supported by his poor defensive on/off splits (both in college and in the NBA). To illustrate exactly how bad he was, Sexton and 34-year-old JJ Redick were the only players to average less than 1 steal+block per 100 possessions last year. There are plenty of other guys that were inexperienced, played in bad defensive systems, and/or didn't give great effort all the time, but none of them were so utterly unproductive. The only conclusion, IMO, is that Sexton lacks defensive talent to an extent that few other players do.

For comparison, Kyrie averaged 50% more boards, twice as many steals, and 5x as many blocks as a rookie. With him you could argue (and I did argue at the time) that maybe if he works hard and gives consistent effort he could be an average defender, because the awareness/reflexes/instincts appear to be there. I don't see that potential with Sexton, realistically.

And that's why Kyrie is such a good defender today.

 

[godfather]

I agree with this as a general point. However, Sexton has two qualities that distinguish him from the vast majority of NBA players:

1) He has a ridiculously hard work ethic;

2) He was way above average academically - a very smart kid.

We saw how those two things combined to remake both his three point shooting and his shot selection within a single season. Making such significant strides so quickly is highly unusual.

Because of that, I'm reluctant to apply to him the usual expectations for possible improvement. I really want to see how he looks defensively this season before concluding that he's doomed to be a below-average defender.

I can see him becoming at least an average defender. But I do think defense requires some skillset, and not simply just playing hard at this level will turn someone from a bad one into a really good one.

But to be fair, almost all rookie guards come into the league and suck on that end. Unless they have great attributes like length, or something of that nature. Even they can struggle though with pick and roll early in their careers.

I just don't see the attributes for Sexton on that end. Nothing he does stands out defensively, at all....

But you're right, the fact Sexton has a great motor and work ethic is definitely a good trait. Working hard can never be completely ignored, but still, you got to have some talent and attributes.

Year 2 is usually where you start seeing where a player can go from here. We'll see what improvement he makes from last year.

 

[godfather]

Doesn't naturally play with a lot of physicality on that end, and doesn't seem to have the right reflexes/instincts/nose for the ball to make defensive plays. Statistically, this shows up in his rebound/steal/block rates, and is further supported by his poor defensive on/off splits (both in college and in the NBA). To illustrate exactly how bad he was, Sexton and 34-year-old JJ Redick were the only players to average less than 1 steal+block per 100 possessions last year. There are plenty of other guys that were inexperienced, played in bad defensive systems, and/or didn't give great effort all the time, but none of them were so utterly unproductive. The only conclusion, IMO, is that Sexton lacks defensive talent to an extent that few other players do.

For comparison, Kyrie averaged 50% more boards, twice as many steals, and 5x as many blocks as a rookie. With him you could argue (and I did argue at the time) that maybe if he works hard and gives consistent effort he could be an average defender, because the awareness/reflexes/instincts appear to be there. I don't see that potential with Sexton, realistically.

Agree completely, Kyrie IMO had more defensive skillsets. And he has always had active hands. But honestly, he's just lazy and you can tell he just really hates playing on that end.

I do agree work ethic can have some impact on that end, but at the end of the day, skills and talent matter most.

This is the NBA. These guys a really good. Simply just working hard won't cut it. You got to have talent and skills on that side of the ball.

 

[1B4IGO]

If you ask most of the great defensive players they will tell you it’s all about effort. Having great athleticism is a great help but effort is the skill that makes a great defender.

 

[RedBlackAttack]

Who did we get for KJ? I was trying to remember. Larry Nance?

Just to be clear, it is considered by the Suns' franchise as the best trade they've ever made (or among the very best). It happened at the mid-point of the 1987-88 season. Price had completely out-played and overtaken KJ and Cavs brass figured they were trading Johnson possibly at the peak of his value because he was a high pick that hadn't panned out, but the tantalizing athleticism was there.

So here it was ...

Cavs Received
Larry Nance (28yo)
Mike Saunders (27yo)
1988 1st Round Pick (drafted Randolph Keys)

Suns Received
Kevin Johnson (21yo)
Mark West (27yo)
Tyrone Corbin (24yo)
1988 1st Round Pick (drafted Dan Majerle)
1988 2nd Round Pick (drafted Dean Garrett)
1989 2nd Round Pick (drafted Greg Grant)


Obviously, you look at this and it seems like a disaster for the Cavs. Larry Nance did end up becoming a legend here obviously and the Cavs teams that followed were undoubtedly the best in franchise history until LeBron arrived. Nance made two All-Star Games as a Cavalier (had made one in his 6.5 years with the Suns).

When you look at it as strictly as us acquiring one of the all-time Cavs greats, it lessens the hurt a bit. However, everything else hurts ... Mike Sanders was actually seen as a promising player entering his prime when he was traded here. Not an All-Star or anything, but maybe a good rotation piece. He spent 1.5 years here and his numbers dipped across the board.

Keys was obviously Keys (I think he was with the Cavs for 2 years iirc).


Meanwhile, it wasn't just that Kevin Johnson was a HOF'er, but this trade really kicked off the best run the Suns have ever had. The Suns were 28-54 at the end of the 1988 season. The season following that trade -- 1988-89 -- they were 58-24 and had done a complete 180-degree turn. They lost to the Lakers in the Western Conference Finals.

KJ averaged 20+ points, 12+ assists and 4+ rebounds per game on 51/10/88 splits in his first full season with the Suns. To put that in perspective, he was at 7 points and 3 assists on 46/22/82 splits off the bench in the 40 games he played with the Cavs prior to the trade. KJ was even better in that first playoff run, going for an efficient 24/12+ in 12 games.

Maybe he would've never been that good in a Cavs uniform and that is something we will never know, but it was absolutely stunning how immediate his transformation was. Cotton Fitzsimmons (Suns coach at the time) deserves a lot of credit there too in his first season as coach.

But, go down the line.... Majerle was a 3x All-Star and a Suns legend. Mark West and Ty Corbin were solid starters on those teams even after Barkley arrived in 1992-93 and they went to The Finals. They won 62 games that year and 54+ from the first full-year after the trade until 1996.


It certainly isn't the perfect comparison to trading one of our two highly drafted PGs, but I would say it should be a lesson in being patient with young guys ... especially young guys who are hard workers and who you've invested a high draft pick into.

 

[godfather]

If you ask most of the great defensive players they will tell you it’s all about effort. Having great athleticism is a great help but effort is the skill that makes a great defender.

I don't think effort doesn't matter at all. A lot of players, really don't enjoy playing on that end. So it usually comes down to pride and competitiveness, plus effort/being engaged, along with physical traits.

But its not just about effort. You got to have good laterall quickness, length, quick hands, and some intelligence on that end. These are things you can't teach. NBA players are too skilled, and can exploit any weakness very easy.

I remember in 2015, when Kyrie started to actually be engaged. He didn't become a complete defender. He literally does have flat feet, and struggles to move from side to side, and that continued being a struggle It's a legit weakness with Irving that he can't fix. But he started to recover when getting beat, and started contesting plays with his active hands. It turned us into a virtually unbeatable team with Moz in the middle and being an excellent pick and roll defender, to combine with TT.

After Kyrie blew he knee out in the finals, I don't think he was ever quite the same. Not to make an excuse it was all because of that, his effort went back to being dog shit outside the finals when we beat GS.

I don't know if its because he hates playing on that side, and/or became more conscious of his knee since then and gave less effort overall on that end.

 

[Nathan S]

I don't think effort doesn't matter at all. A lot of players, really don't enjoy playing on that end. So it usually comes down to pride and competitiveness, plus effort/being engaged, along with physical traits.

But its not just about effort. You got to have good laterall quickness, length, quick hands, and some intelligence on that end. These are things you can't teach. NBA players are too skilled, and can exploit any weakness very easy.

I remember in 2015, when Kyrie started to actually be engaged. He didn't become a complete defender. He literally does have flat feet, and struggles to move from side to side, and that continued being a struggle It's a legit weakness with Irving that he can't fix. But he started to recover when getting beat, and started contesting plays with his active hands. It turned us into a virtually unbeatable team with Moz in the middle and being an excellent pick and roll defender, to combine with TT.

After Kyrie blew he knee out in the finals, I don't think he was ever quite the same. Not to make an excuse it was all because of that, his effort went back to being dog shit outside the finals when we beat GS.

I don't know if its because he hates playing on that side, and/or became more conscious of his knee since then and gave less effort overall on that end.

Saying effort is what matters on defense is like saying shooting is what matters on offense. Yeah those things are important, possibly more important than any other individual attribute. But it takes more than one positive attribute to be a good, or even average, player. That's especially true at the NBA level where you're competing against the most talented players in the world. Game's more complicated than that.

 

[macbdog]

Just to be clear, it is considered by the Suns' franchise as the best trade they've ever made (or among the very best). It happened at the mid-point of the 1987-88 season. Price had completely out-played and overtaken KJ and Cavs brass figured they were trading Johnson possibly at the peak of his value because he was a high pick that hadn't panned out, but the tantalizing athleticism was there.

So here it was ...

Cavs Received
Larry Nance (28yo)
Mike Saunders (27yo)
1988 1st Round Pick (drafted Randolph Keys)

Suns Received
Kevin Johnson (21yo)
Mark West (27yo)
Tyrone Corbin (24yo)
1988 1st Round Pick (drafted Dan Majerle)
1988 2nd Round Pick (drafted Dean Garrett)
1989 2nd Round Pick (drafted Greg Grant)


Obviously, you look at this and it seems like a disaster for the Cavs. Larry Nance did end up becoming a legend here obviously and the Cavs teams that followed were undoubtedly the best in franchise history until LeBron arrived. Nance made two All-Star Games as a Cavalier (had made one in his 6.5 years with the Suns).

When you look at it as strictly as us acquiring one of the all-time Cavs greats, it lessens the hurt a bit. However, everything else hurts ... Mike Sanders was actually seen as a promising player entering his prime when he was traded here. Not an All-Star or anything, but maybe a good rotation piece. He spent 1.5 years here and his numbers dipped across the board.

Keys was obviously Keys (I think he was with the Cavs for 2 years iirc).


Meanwhile, it wasn't just that Kevin Johnson was a HOF'er, but this trade really kicked off the best run the Suns have ever had. The Suns were 28-54 at the end of the 1988 season. The season following that trade -- 1988-89 -- they were 58-24 and had done a complete 180-degree turn. They lost to the Lakers in the Western Conference Finals.

KJ averaged 20+ points, 12+ assists and 4+ rebounds per game on 51/10/88 splits in his first full season with the Suns. To put that in perspective, he was at 7 points and 3 assists on 46/22/82 splits off the bench in the 40 games he played with the Cavs prior to the trade. KJ was even better in that first playoff run, going for an efficient 24/12+ in 12 games.

Maybe he would've never been that good in a Cavs uniform and that is something we will never know, but it was absolutely stunning how immediate his transformation was. Cotton Fitzsimmons (Suns coach at the time) deserves a lot of credit there too in his first season as coach.

But, go down the line.... Majerle was a 3x All-Star and a Suns legend. Mark West and Ty Corbin were solid starters on those teams even after Barkley arrived in 1992-93 and they went to The Finals. They won 62 games that year and 54+ from the first full-year after the trade until 1996.


It certainly isn't the perfect comparison to trading one of our two highly drafted PGs, but I would say it should be a lesson in being patient with young guys ... especially young guys who are hard workers and who you've invested a high draft pick into.

I never realized the Cavs also technically traded Thunder Dan in that trade. Ironically, I grew up in AZ a Suns fan- started just after they made this trade, so I never knew Nance but most certainly watched the KJ- Hornacheck- Chambers- Majerle Suns.

 

[DeeThree]

Saying effort is what matters on defense is like saying shooting is what matters on offense. Yeah those things are important, possibly more important than any other individual attribute. But it takes more than one positive attribute to be a good, or even average, player. That's especially true at the NBA level where you're competing against the most talented players in the world. Game's more complicated than that.

Nope, effort IS what matters on defense.

 

[wildfan]

It certainly isn't the perfect comparison to trading one of our two highly drafted PGs, but I would say it should be a lesson in being patient with young guys ... especially young guys who are hard workers and who you've invested a high draft pick into.

thanks for the reply

Think Danny Green may be another example. Harris may be another. Cavs have not be very patient over the years. In addition I have to wonder about their scouting as well as their desire or ability to develop players. It seems year after year the same teams find talent even late in the draft.

 

[dark2332]

thanks for the reply

Think Danny Green may be another example. Harris may be another. Cavs have not be very patient over the years. In addition I have to wonder about their scouting as well as their desire or ability to develop players. It seems year after year the same teams find talent even late in the draft.

So, it’s important to note that we were in a time with LeBron James when everything was based on winning immediately.

David Griffin himself has spoken numerous times about how this is unsustainable.

One of the main reasons it’s unsustainable is due to the inability to develop some cheap young talent. In these situations, the time and the patience don’t often exist for player development. Likewise, our veteran team very rarely practiced—which a young player needs.

Now that we are rebuilding, I’d anticipate much more emphasis on player development. Our front office has said as much every chance it gets.

Beilein is elite in this area. Altman worked with USA basketball, which is all about player development. Bickerstaff has that teaching background.

It’s a new era of commitment, patience, and teaching the game.

 

[I'mWithDan]

We need a really strong 3. Even an athletic, strong 3/4 tweener.

It sucks. I don't see anyone in next years draft. I see point guards and centers. We need to tank 2 more years? or, we can fucking try to accumulate more fucking picks and perhaps get a lottery pick or get lucky with a good defensive 3&D 3 in the late 1st round.

It's much easier to get as good wing in the late 1st/late teens/2nd round than it is to get a good point guard. You see a lot of good wings in this league that were actually late picks. Most great point guards in this league were picked early lottery.

Guys to keep an eye on:

Amar Sylla
Samuell Williamson
Precious Achiuwa
Kahlil Whitney

To me, Whitney is the guy who could rocket up draft boards. He’s just a next level athlete and really skilled. He’s also just a top notch kid for 18. I’m not sure why people have mostly put him in the 20’s in early mocks.....he just has everything you want to me in a wing prospect. Competitive, hyper athletic, refined skills for someone who is just so physically overpowering at his age, tough, high character, NBA frame.....he just checks all the boxes for me.

 

[dark2332]

Guys to keep an eye on:

Amar Sylla
Samuell Williamson
Precious Achiuwa
Kahlil Whitney

To me, Whitney is the guy who could rocket up draft boards. He’s just a next level athlete and really skilled. He’s also just a top notch kid for 18. I’m not sure why people have mostly put him in the 20’s in early mocks.....he just has everything you want to me in a wing prospect. Competitive, hyper athletic, refined skills for someone who is just so physically overpowering at his age, tough, high character, NBA frame.....he just checks all the boxes for me.

I don’t care how good he is, I straight up refuse to draft a man named “Precious.”

Wendell Moore is another to watch at Duke—see how he develops there. He’s very young, he’d only be 18 at next year’s draft.

 

[CleveRocks]

Defense at the NBA level is physical. You have to be strong enough to take a beating. At guard you are going to get run through screens until you are bloody. I don't think Kyrie was ever durable enough to get the stop when we needed it.. Few freshman jumps to the NBA physically strong enough to defend out of the gate.. LeBron did it, AD did it. Perhaps Zion.. but Sexton was still a relative boy last year. This was obvious when he was on the floor with mature guards like Beal ( Who is ripped). If he put in the body work this year, he will take a step forward defensively.. but I think these guys don't touch defensive peak until the body matures (23 or so)

 

[Sir'Dom Pointer]

I don’t care how good he is, I straight up refuse to draft a man named “Precious.”

Wendell Moore is another to watch at Duke—see how he develops there. He’s very young, he’d only be 18 at next year’s draft.

You dont like the sound of our home victory chant whenever we get near the playoffs

AC: "Precious win in Sexland"

Worth it imo..