2020-2021 Cavs Season General Discussion

[RchfldCavRaised]

Iggy is a realistic roadmap for him I think, but not were I would view his ceiling. If Okoro is able to tighten his handle a bit and get some consistency in his jumper, I think he could be a full 3-level scorer who can also be a lockdown 1v1 defender. I dont expect him to rack up a ton of stocks but just be an all-defensive level positional defender. Rich man's Caron Butler?

I don't believe Iggy was ever a #2. A strong 3 who settled in best with #1 and #2 firmly entrenched ahead of him in the rotation in GSW

For me, #1 & #2 are both max guys and your #2 should be able to carry a WAR of +10 games and win you games by himself when #1 is out for whatever reason

Here are my current #2's
Kyrie, Russ, Beal, Booker, Paul George is a beta #1 but a alpha #2, Bosh was a beta #2 but alpha #3, Ben Simmons, Jimmy Butler, Jaylen Brown, Jrue Holiday, Jamal Murray, Julius Randle, Ingram, etc

Guys who are #3 have the potential to play like a #2 sparingly, if they wake up on the right side of the bed or as matchups dictate are:

Here are my current #3's
CJ McCullum, Draymond, Ayton, Porzingis, Middleton, Sexton, DeAaron Fox, Bam, Sabonis, Jerami Grant, John Collins, etc

There are really good 4's who can play like 3's like Marcus Smart, Brogdon, RJ Barret, Hunter, etc... I would really like to avoid paying pseudo 4's like 2's until they've shown they can win games on their own. Okoro to me is currently in this class and projecting to become a strong 3 based on these current player ratings

 

[foucault87]

I don't believe Iggy was ever a #2. A strong 3 who settled in best with #1 and #2 firmly entrenched ahead of him in the rotation in GSW

For me, #1 & #2 are both max guys and your #2 should be able to carry a WAR of +10 games and win you games by himself when #1 is out for whatever reason

Here are my current #2's
Kyrie, Russ, Beal, Booker, Paul George is a beta #1 but a alpha #2, Bosh was a beta #2 but alpha #3, Ben Simmons, Jimmy Butler, Jaylen Brown, Jrue Holiday, Jamal Murray, Julius Randle, Ingram, etc

Guys who are #3 have the potential to play like a #2 sparingly, if they wake up on the right side of the bed or as matchups dictate are:

Here are my current #3's
CJ McCullum, Draymond, Ayton, Porzingis, Middleton, Sexton, DeAaron Fox, Bam, Sabonis, Jerami Grant, John Collins, etc

There are really good 4's who can play like 3's like Marcus Smart, Brogdon, RJ Barret, Hunter, etc... I would really like to avoid paying pseudo 4's like 2's until they've shown they can win games on their own. Okoro to me is currently in this class and projecting to become a strong 3 based on these current player ratings

How would you put a player like KG in this rating system? I think I generally agree with your differentiation of the tiers, but KG is a player who I always felt mucked up these rankings. He was an elite defensive system by himself (much like Russell back in the day and Rudy today) but was never an elite go-to scorer. Could he get you 20 a night and be an elite passing hub? Sure. Could he win a few games on his own? Absolutely. When you 100% need a win could he turn it in for you? That I am not so sure. On the defensive end alone, I think you could make a case for him as a tier 1 guy but on the other end its hard.

Iggy was an interesting case. I think he was tier 3 when he was with GSW, but I think you could argue he was a tier 2 guy with Philly. I am thinking of that one year (2011?) when they knocked off the Bulls. Iggy was phenomenal and one of their two crunchtime guys (him and Andre Miller).

I don't think it is crazy to see Okoro having multiple seasons at that level. I think a tier 3, borderline 2 is probably the realistic projection with him. Given his work ethic, and his uhh...winningess? clutch factor? whatever you want to call it...I think a legit tier 2 is not out of the question (lets arbitrarily say 10% chance of happening). I have no basis for this, but I think we will see Okoro do something similar to Jimmy Butler where he is a tier 2 guy in the regular season but levels up to a tier 1.5 in the playoffs. Jamal Murray did this too...morphing from a tier 3 to a tier 2 last year. These kinds of players who can step up in the playoffs are extremely valuable.

 

[RchfldCavRaised]

How would you put a player like KG in this rating system? I think I generally agree with your differentiation of the tiers, but KG is a player who I always felt mucked up these rankings. He was an elite defensive system by himself (much like Russell back in the day and Rudy today) but was never an elite go-to scorer. Could he get you 20 a night and be an elite passing hub? Sure. Could he win a few games on his own? Absolutely. When you 100% need a win could he turn it in for you? That I am not so sure. On the defensive end alone, I think you could make a case for him as a tier 1 guy but on the other end its hard.

Iggy was an interesting case. I think he was tier 3 when he was with GSW, but I think you could argue he was a tier 2 guy with Philly. I am thinking of that one year (2011?) when they knocked off the Bulls. Iggy was phenomenal and one of their two crunchtime guys (him and Andre Miller).

I don't think it is crazy to see Okoro having multiple seasons at that level. I think a tier 3, borderline 2 is probably the realistic projection with him. Given his work ethic, and his uhh...winningess? clutch factor? whatever you want to call it...I think a legit tier 2 is not out of the question (lets arbitrarily say 10% chance of happening). I have no basis for this, but I think we will see Okoro do something similar to Jimmy Butler where he is a tier 2 guy in the regular season but levels up to a tier 1.5 in the playoffs. Jamal Murray did this too...morphing from a tier 3 to a tier 2 last year. These kinds of players who can step up in the playoffs are extremely valuable.

I cant forget seeing KG during his MVP season score 40+ in the biggest games including first round against a young hungry Nuggets with Melo, KMart, JR Smith and that crew that eventually were contending for WCF and the 2nd round against Sacramento where he bested Webber and that iteration for their last title run.

He's firmly a #1 for me who was willing to play #2 when he accepted the trade to Boston so he could get his ring

 

[foucault87]

I am interested in the case for Allen as a tier 2 guy. I think he is a legitimate tier 4 guy already and it is not hard to imagine him as a championship center on a team like GSW which has a ton of perimeter shooting and good passers. I just wonder how much he can push his game. He hasn't shown much as a back to the basket post-scorer (which admittedly is worthless 90% of the time in the modern game). Is that jump just from projecting his jumpshot? I expect him to be a 35% ish 3 point shooter from the corner, but I don't think he will turn into JJJ or anything. I also don't see a lot of playmaking from him so I am just not sure where the upside is. I think adding the 3 can push him into tier 3 but imo he is solidly tier 4 with a decent chance to move up to tier 3 right now.

One other observation looking at this...the Cavs current roster is actually really well positioned. We are chock full of tier 2-4 guys and just need to find a tier 1. I think we are actually in a better position than quite a few other teams. For example, take the Bulls. Their top 5 guys by playing time:

Lavine - Tier 3, borderline tier 2
Vuc - Tier 3, borderline tier 2
Coby White - potential tier 4
Pat Williams - Tier 4, potential tier 3, 5% chance of tier 2
Garrett Temple - lol
Lauri - Tier 5? wherever you put 7th men

I think Thad Young is probably a tier 4 guy and they traded away another potential tier 3 guy (WCJ) but their roster is bleak. That team will not be seeing a deep playoff run soon.

 

[2 For The Brew]

I don't believe Iggy was ever a #2. A strong 3 who settled in best with #1 and #2 firmly entrenched ahead of him in the rotation in GSW

For me, #1 & #2 are both max guys and your #2 should be able to carry a WAR of +10 games and win you games by himself when #1 is out for whatever reason

Here are my current #2's
Kyrie, Russ, Beal, Booker, Paul George is a beta #1 but a alpha #2, Bosh was a beta #2 but alpha #3, Ben Simmons, Jimmy Butler, Jaylen Brown, Jrue Holiday, Jamal Murray, Julius Randle, Ingram, etc

Guys who are #3 have the potential to play like a #2 sparingly, if they wake up on the right side of the bed or as matchups dictate are:

Here are my current #3's
CJ McCullum, Draymond, Ayton, Porzingis, Middleton, Sexton, DeAaron Fox, Bam, Sabonis, Jerami Grant, John Collins, etc

There are really good 4's who can play like 3's like Marcus Smart, Brogdon, RJ Barret, Hunter, etc... I would really like to avoid paying pseudo 4's like 2's until they've shown they can win games on their own. Okoro to me is currently in this class and projecting to become a strong 3 based on these current player ratings

Ben Simmons is a lock at #2.

Every time he plays in the #2 round he #2s the bed.

 

[Lee]

Where we stand right now @Derek in my honest assessment of championship caliber rotation players...

#1
none

#2
none

#3
Garland (#2 potential)
Allen (#2 potential)
Sexton (firm #3)

#4 -#7 rotational contributors
Okoro (#3 potential)
Nance
Windler (potential contributor if healthy/reliable)

If we drafted Mobley and the guys showed continued growth this season, I would approach next offseason with this best case scenario for what's in my cupboard...

#1
none

#2
Mobley (#1 potential)
Garland
Allen

#3
Okoro
Sexton

#4-#7 rotational contributors
Nance
Windler

I love Allen, want to keep him at almost any cost, but no way is Allen the 2nd best player on a championship squad. Just my opinion, he is a 3rd/4th best type player, I think Sexton is a 3rd best, Okoro possibly, Garland could get to #2, think he will actually and Mobley has #1 potential.

Just not as high on Allen as you, which is odd, I think Allen develops a jumper, continues to get stronger, and really becomes a good player, but #2 potential? No way.

 

[Lee]

How would you put a player like KG in this rating system? I think I generally agree with your differentiation of the tiers, but KG is a player who I always felt mucked up these rankings. He was an elite defensive system by himself (much like Russell back in the day and Rudy today) but was never an elite go-to scorer. Could he get you 20 a night and be an elite passing hub? Sure. Could he win a few games on his own? Absolutely. When you 100% need a win could he turn it in for you? That I am not so sure. On the defensive end alone, I think you could make a case for him as a tier 1 guy but on the other end its hard.

Iggy was an interesting case. I think he was tier 3 when he was with GSW, but I think you could argue he was a tier 2 guy with Philly. I am thinking of that one year (2011?) when they knocked off the Bulls. Iggy was phenomenal and one of their two crunchtime guys (him and Andre Miller).

I don't think it is crazy to see Okoro having multiple seasons at that level. I think a tier 3, borderline 2 is probably the realistic projection with him. Given his work ethic, and his uhh...winningess? clutch factor? whatever you want to call it...I think a legit tier 2 is not out of the question (lets arbitrarily say 10% chance of happening). I have no basis for this, but I think we will see Okoro do something similar to Jimmy Butler where he is a tier 2 guy in the regular season but levels up to a tier 1.5 in the playoffs. Jamal Murray did this too...morphing from a tier 3 to a tier 2 last year. These kinds of players who can step up in the playoffs are extremely valuable.

KG? Alpha #1 all day. If he had better players around him in Minny, he wins a title there. KG is old school alpha in a newish school world.

Iggy is interesting. Ever see the move Joe vs the Valcano. Iggy is the luggage. That shit was indestructible and helped get out of situations all the time.

I think Okoro's size hinders him, to be a #2 he has to develop a 42% from 3 jumper, but never count out a kid with his work effort. I see Okoro ending up #3.

Agree on Butler and Murray, i dont think Okoro ever reaches Butler level though, but I think you can make a case for Butler being a #1 guy on the right team. #2 for sure.

 

[foucault87]

Another good team to look at for this exercise is the Hawks imo. They are about two years ahead of where we are in the curve. Just taking a look at their top rotation guys:

Trae - Tier 2, borderline tier 1 in a Nashian sense
Collins - Tier 4
Capela - Tier 2
Bogey - Tier 3
Hunter - potential Tier 3
Cam - potential Tier 3
Gallo - Tier 4
Okongwu - potential Tier 3
Rondo - Tier 1 on national TV

I can see our roster being somewhere around there in a few years (after we lose the Love deal). I would say we are where they were at the draft last year. Getting Boggy and Gallo really helped catapult them up from borderline playoff team to top 5 seed. If we grab a few good vets next year, without giving up too many assets, we will be well positioned. The trick is not to give up the farm for 2 months of Spencer Hawes and washed up Luol Deng.

 

[Sebastian]

Hah, if Pop can't handle questions from the media without being a dick, imagine how he reacted to this...

He showed the 76ers Front Office folks the door. Or, actually, the window.

The Defenstration of San Antonio they're calling it.

Here is footage.

 

[Green Lantern]

He showed the 76ers Front Office folks the door. Or, actually, the window.

The Defenstration of San Antonio they're calling it.

Here is footage.

Hey that should be the Guardians,uh Indians new image

 

[ansatsusha80]

 

[NMCav]

Didn't we trade for Rubio so that we wouldn't need to overpay the Alex Carusos of the world?

 

[Futuredome]

Yeah, somebody needs to upgrade their article.

 

[sailfish]

Didn't we trade for Rubio so that we wouldn't need to overpay the Alex Carusos of the world?

Yep. We’re not signing Caruso after trading for Rubio.

 

[pinoycavsfan]

Cavs need a starting caliber wing and not another guard.