2020-21 Offseason Discussion

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daddywags

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To further illustrate my point on Naquin, if you let him go along with Santana and trading Lindor, you have a TON of holes.

C - Perez or Hedges
1B - ?
2B - ?
SS - ?
3B - JRam
LF - Naylor
CF - ?
RF -?
DH - Reyes

Bradley/Bauers/N. Jones could be 1B but Jones is the only one that excites me. 2B or SS could be filled by Chang if they finally give him a shot...maybe Miller fills the other. You have to a ML-ready OF in the Lindor trade because there's no way I'm trusting TWO of Mercado/Bauers/Luplow/DeShields/Johnson.

Luplow needs a real shot to play every day. He should be penciled in at RF IMO.
 

Steve_424

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Luplow needs a real shot to play every day. He should be penciled in at RF IMO.

I just don't see him as an every day player. He got a shot this year to play almost every day for a spurt and he did nothing with it.

.128/.277/.308/.584 in 47 PA against RHP in 2020.

.194/.276/.316/.594 in 272 career PA.

Maybe it happens and I hope I'm wrong, but what would lead us to believe he'll ever hit RHP?
 

EdMonix11

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Non-tendering Naquin would be a mistake. I know he wasn't great this year and has issues staying on the field but he's the only outfielder we have that is anything close to a proven commodity.

I call it the "shiny new prospect" syndrome

Having guys who've done it at the MLB level means something. Maybe not to fans who think every prospect with a nice Minor League slash line is going to be a Major League star but it does matter to front offices. It's hard to stick in the bigs.... It's also why I don't think there's gonna be a ton of changes to this lineup.
 

sportscoach

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I call it the "shiny new prospect" syndrome

Having guys who've done it at the MLB level means something. Maybe not to fans who think every prospect with a nice Minor League slash line is going to be a Major League star but it does matter to front offices. It's hard to stick in the bigs.... It's also why I don't think there's gonna be a ton of changes to this lineup.

Johnson will get a nice long look in spring, but he has to win it to make the roster. They arent just going to give it to him. Not sure why people believe they will
 

EdMonix11

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Maybe when it comes to offensive evaluation/developing young hitters... Yes maybe they are a tad incompetent. Between the pathetic performance of our offense, the constant overpaying of over the hill vets and worst of all the number of productive young ex Indian farnhands now starting to scatter across the league.. is that not enough proof?

I mean if your argument is that the Indians must know what they are doing in terms of prospect development so they must be correct in not giving Johnson a chance...dont you think that argument stands on thin ice at this point just by looking at the product they have put out there?

Who are these farmhands everywhere now?

Let's run through it.... Joey Wendle who was traded for Brandon Moss. Something weird went on between the organization and Yandy Diaz. Gio Urshela was practically out of baseball before the Yanks re-worked him. Erik Gonzalez is a nobody. Anthony Santander is an Orioles long-term science experiment. Willi Castro had a solid year in Detroit.

If that's your proof, sheesh. I would beg you to look around the league and see who's been moved before. Shoot, Fernando Tatis Jr. was traded for James Shields for fucks sake. Not one of the guys I've listed is anywhere CLOSE to being a star player or even a difference maker and it's a total joke to think otherwise. Honestly, the only guys I wish were still here are Diaz and Castro...
 

sportscoach

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Who are these farmhands everywhere now?

Let's run through it.... Joey Wendle who was traded for Brandon Moss. Something weird went on between the organization and Yandy Diaz. Gio Urshela was practically out of baseball before the Yanks re-worked him. Erik Gonzalez is a nobody. Anthony Santander is an Orioles long-term science experiment. Willi Castro had a solid year in Detroit.

If that's your proof, sheesh. I would beg you to look around the league and see who's been moved before. Shoot, Fernando Tatis Jr. was traded for James Shields for fucks sake. Not one of the guys I've listed is anywhere CLOSE to being a star player or even a difference maker and it's a total joke to think otherwise. Honestly, the only guys I wish were still here are Diaz and Castro...

Diaz was traded for a top 100 prospect and Castro had a slash line of .245/.303/.350 at Akron before the Tigers acquired him. In 17, he went .290/.327/.424. He wasnt rated as one of our top prospects in a position we had depth.

I liked Yandy Diaz myself, but we trade EE and Diaz for Bauers and Santana plus cash. I cannot say the trade on paper looks bad at all.
 

Steve_424

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I call it the "shiny new prospect" syndrome

Having guys who've done it at the MLB level means something. Maybe not to fans who think every prospect with a nice Minor League slash line is going to be a Major League star but it does matter to front offices. It's hard to stick in the bigs.... It's also why I don't think there's gonna be a ton of changes to this lineup.

THIS.

Naquin isn't a star or close to it, but as long as he's healthy he's a solid bat and solid in the outfield. You can put him in the lineup every day. That matters, and, to me, will be especially important if Lindor and Santana aren't here in 2021.
 

DerekG123

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Who are these farmhands everywhere now?

Let's run through it.... Joey Wendle who was traded for Brandon Moss. Something weird went on between the organization and Yandy Diaz. Gio Urshela was practically out of baseball before the Yanks re-worked him. Erik Gonzalez is a nobody. Anthony Santander is an Orioles long-term science experiment. Willi Castro had a solid year in Detroit.

If that's your proof, sheesh. I would beg you to look around the league and see who's been moved before. Shoot, Fernando Tatis Jr. was traded for James Shields for fucks sake. Not one of the guys I've listed is anywhere CLOSE to being a star player or even a difference maker and it's a total joke to think otherwise. Honestly, the only guys I wish were still here are Diaz and Castro...

Throw in Jesus Aguilar and you got 5 guys on other teams who would be among like our top 4 or 5 hitters next year. They may not be league stars but they would be stars on this team.
 

sportscoach

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Throw in Jesus Aguilar and you got 5 guys on other teams who would be among like our top 4 or 5 hitters next year. They may not be league stars but they would be stars on this team.

Aguilar wouldn't have made this roster over Reyes and Santana...

Urshela is strictly 3B, Diaz is 1B and 3B, Wendle is 2B and 3B. So none of them were an improvement over Hernandez/JRam combo.

Santander was really the one that got away. Hard to protect an A ball kid who didn't play a full season....
 

EdMonix11

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Throw in Jesus Aguilar and you got 5 guys on other teams who would be among like our top 4 or 5 hitters next year. They may not be league stars but they would be stars on this team.

That's so lame, dude.

Aguilar had a .714 OPS last year and was DFA'd. Fuck that.

LOL, so wait, there's five former Indians prospects on other teams who'd be among our top 4-5 hitters next year? Holy hyperbole. The math totally checks out, by the way....

So where were we putting these five guys in the meantime then? What were we gonna do with Kipnis who was a back-to-back All Star when most of these guys were here? What about Jose Ramirez who has now been a multi-year MVP candidate? What about Lindor? Should we have moved on from Michael Brantley in LF? Wanna look up Lonnie Chisenhall's stats in RF?

Let's totally ignore the fact the Indians brought in guys like Josh Donaldson and Edwin Encarnacion. Or they milked every last ounce of value out of Melky Cabrera, Austin Jackson, Mike Napoli, Brandon Guyer and Rajai Davis. Go look at their stats....

You're taking the here-and-now and not even considering where this organization was in past.... like, at all. It's easier to just throw stones when it's convenient, I guess.

Let's not forget that, other than the Diaz trade, nobody gave a fuck about any of these guys at the time they were moved.

The Indians would've been crucified by everybody on earth if they let some of these guys continue to suck here while these veteran guys were having success and the Indians were contending.
 

DerekG123

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Aguilar wouldn't have made this roster over Reyes and Santana...

Urshela is strictly 3B, Diaz is 1B and 3B, Wendle is 2B and 3B. So none of them were an improvement over Hernandez/JRam combo.

Santander was really the one that got away. Hard to protect an A ball kid who didn't play a full season....

You don't think that maybe if we had those guys and actually developed them that maybe that impacts some of the other moves we have made? Eg, making JRam a full time third baseman (cause they other two were let go) , signing Hernandez (JRam could still be there), acquiring Reyes/making him a full time DH(he wasn't in the NL), reacquiring Santana in a trade instead of someone else, etc. And Castro could have been moved to the OF. I thought part of the premise behind their current fetish for drafting/trading for so many young infielders was that they are athletic enough to switch to other positions if needed.

Santander was a 21 year old with a. 890 Ops in 500 atbats at A+ in 2016. The next year we had Michael Martinez and Daniel Robertson on roster. Would you trade a 21 year old with a. 890 Ops for Michael Martinez or Daniel Robertson? Cause that is basically what they did.

And really, I'm not trying to nitpick each move. I really just want to point out that their general philosophy of not putting young guys in the fire is a contributor to their current situation. This topic really all started with Johnson. Right now he is getting the same treatment, imo.
 
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DerekG123

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That's so lame, dude.

Aguilar had a .714 OPS last year and was DFA'd. Fuck that.

LOL, so wait, there's five former Indians prospects on other teams who'd be among our top 4-5 hitters next year? Holy hyperbole. The math totally checks out, by the way....

So where were we putting these five guys in the meantime then? What were we gonna do with Kipnis who was a back-to-back All Star when most of these guys were here? What about Jose Ramirez who has now been a multi-year MVP candidate? What about Lindor? Should we have moved on from Michael Brantley in LF? Wanna look up Lonnie Chisenhall's stats in RF?

Let's totally ignore the fact the Indians brought in guys like Josh Donaldson and Edwin Encarnacion. Or they milked every last ounce of value out of Melky Cabrera, Austin Jackson, Mike Napoli, Brandon Guyer and Rajai Davis. Go look at their stats....

You're taking the here-and-now and not even considering where this organization was in past.... like, at all. It's easier to just throw stones when it's convenient, I guess.

Let's not forget that, other than the Diaz trade, nobody gave a fuck about any of these guys at the time they were moved.

The Indians would've been crucified by everybody on earth if they let some of these guys continue to suck here while these veteran guys were having success and the Indians were contending.

Dude, obviously I didn't mean ALL 5 would be in the top 4 or 5 individually. Rather, EACH ONE of the 5 would be in our top 4 or 5. Do I really have to explain things like that?

And I'm really not trying to get into a nitpicking about each and every prospect. My point remains that they consistently give more ABs to "safe" guys who are what they are or old washed up guys than take a chance with on someone with upside... teams on low budgets shouldn't do this! The past can be the past but DO NOT pickup another overdone vet or league retread next year to take ABs from guys like Johnson... give him the ABs sink or swim. The time to adopt that philosophy is now is really my whole point.
 
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sportscoach

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You don't think that maybe if we had those guys and actually developed them that maybe that impacts some of the other moves we have made? Eg, making JRam a full time third baseman (cause they other two were let go) , signing Hernandez (JRam could still be there), acquiring Reyes/making him a full time DH(he wasn't in the NL), reacquiring Santana in a trade instead of someone else, etc. And Castro could have been moved to the OF. I thought part of the premise behind their current fetish for drafting/trading for so many young infielders was that they are athletic enough to switch to other positions if needed.

Santander was a 21 year old with a. 890 Ops in 500 atbats at A+ in 2016. The next year we had Michael Martinez and Daniel Robertson on roster. Would you trade a 21 year old with a. 890 Ops for Michael Martinez or Daniel Robertson? Cause that is basically what they did.

And really, I'm not trying to nitpick each move. I really just want to point out that their general philosophy of not putting young guys in the fire is a contributor to their current situation. This topic really all started with Johnson. Right now he is getting the same treatment, imo.

There is a lot of players that get an OPS of .860 at A ball. Santander wasn't even ready for the pros that season either. He played 13 games because he was injured then the next two seasons he spent a fair amount of time in the minors. Yes he would have been better than who we have now in a sense, but his first 4 seasons with the tribe, he had injuries and the season he got 128 games, he got hurt, and was hurt when Baltimore grabbed him.

All your words say hindsight and not taking into account at that time. @BimboColesHair was pissed beyond belief that someone actually snagged Santander (who barely made our top 30 prospects). But at the times of the moves we made, Wendle for Moss, Castro for Martin, etc they all seemed to make sense.
 

Wham with the Right Hand

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THIS.

Naquin isn't a star or close to it, but as long as he's healthy he's a solid bat and solid in the outfield. You can put him in the lineup every day. That matters, and, to me, will be especially important if Lindor and Santana aren't here in 2021.
The Indians don't have the budget to put a star player at every position like they did in the late 90's. Some positions they're going to have to settle for an average or slightly above average player. You can make the playoffs with average players in some positions as long as you have above average or elite players in other positions. That has to be the Indians approach given their financial limitations.

If you have an excellent starting rotation, a good set-up man and closer, an MVP candidate at third base, a great defensive catcher, and another very productive hitter (hopefully Reyes next year), you can have average players at the other positions and make the playoffs.

Naquin is not an elite outfielder or even above average. But the last year he was healthy and had a full spring training was 2019 and he had an OPS of just under .800. He also runs well and has an outstanding arm. At about $1.5 million he would be a bargain.

As for Luplow, he had a couple of big hits against RHP's late in the season. I'd like to see what he can do playing every day for a couple of months. The more he sees of right-handed pitching the more he's likely to hit.

The fact is we don't have the money to sign a Michael Brantley and we don't have any outfielders in the farm system that are ready to play at the major league level with the possible exception of Johnson. I've pretty much given up on Zimmer and Bauers. If Nolan Jones is not ready to be our every day first baseman next year I'd go with Naylor at first and an outfield of Naquin, Mercado, Luplow, and Johnson. Two right-handed hitters and two lefties and let Tito decide who starts against which pitchers.

If we get Santana back then Naylor moves back to the outfield. Or if they trade for a major league bat or if they want to move Reyes to right field thinking he might hit better. The Indians were 28th in home runs this year, averaging less than one per game. Next year they could be 30th with the loss of Lindor and Santana. That might influence their thinking on guys like Naquin, who even when he hits is mainly a singles hitter.
 
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