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2020-21 Offseason Discussion

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Seems to me it will be difficult for the Indians to get #metoo'd here. He probably isn't going to survive his Angels suspension, though. The team could only deal with what they knew about at the time. If he wasn't harrassing anyone internally, or was appropriately disciplined for doing so this is dead in terms of the team. Mick on the other hand is going to get consumed and cancelled. That seems pretty obvious.
 
Whipping your shirt off ala Brandy Chastain is one thing. Sending a sexually suggestive picture is another..

Which was my point of firefighters ... that filth I had to see walking in a mall with my small children with no paper bag over it

Kidding a bit but it needs to be in context. I think everything he did was bad taste but sending a text w a woman in bikini or man in speedo isn't pornography and depends on relationship. And, the intent, is probably more important than image. Harassing the woman after they broke up threatening her to keep quiet would be an serious issue. Asking (suggesting) her friend for 3some is very bad taste but not illegal.

Is there more info on context as I seen it was to woman in affair and another place said it was her girlfriend.
 
Seems to me it will be difficult for the Indians to get #metoo'd here. He probably isn't going to survive his Angels suspension, though. The team could only deal with what they knew about at the time. If he wasn't harrassing anyone internally, or was appropriately disciplined for doing so this is dead in terms of the team. Mick on the other hand is going to get consumed and cancelled. That seems pretty obvious.

I'm afraid it may not be that simple. If they disciplined him for it before, then Antonetti intentionally lied about it. That's going to be a problem.
 
having worked in management for a 10k plus employee company, I'm not seeing enough that brings down CA or Tito. Now, there may be more to come which would change that, but at this point I don't see them fired. UNLESS......Dolan is closer to a sale of a team, which I think pretty much everyone agrees is being set up with decreasing payroll and deleting Indians, and the sale is going to be hindered by the scandal itself.

Frankie. I never thought I'd see the day where I was glad he was gone. Not that I don't miss the talent, but I'm ready to move on. It's obvious he moved on far before the end of the 2020 season. My prediction is that he doesn't stay in NY long term, and they end up with one season of him and CC for what they gave us.
 
I'm afraid it may not be that simple. If they disciplined him for it before, then Antonetti intentionally lied about it. That's going to be a problem.
If they had knowledge about internal harrassment and covered it up or did nothing after a complaint, there's a problem. A huge one. If they didn't do that, there is not. It really is that simple. Antonetti's answer in the press? Not illegal. He isn't required to disclose squat in public. If he lied, it won't look great but he would've done nothing illegal.
 
Can I clarify something, the picture was just shirtless and nothing else uncovered?

I agree sending it to a friend of the woman you are having an affair with is bad taste but are we going to have to terminate a bunch of cops and firefighters who poise for calendars with this standard?

Will the next team dealing with MJ or Magic extra marital affairs have to cut their MVP player?

As I said before, there is a fine line that Mickey probably did cross. The question is when did the Indians realize it and should they have looked harder. But, in 2-3 months from summer to October 2017 what was the actual fireable offense? Yelling at co-workers??? ... mlb just fines or suspends managers for a few game if over the top. Sexually harassing co-workers? That is later after Indians. Flirting with women? Bad taste but you would have a bunch of construction crews in jail for whistling. Having an affair? Corporations would lose 1/3 staff tomorrow.

Indians should have found a new pitching coach after 2017 even if he didn’t leave. And they should have looked at their public imagine with him being a public figure before than (w girlfriends on road trips). However what is the crime? I thought that pic was full nude.
On June 19, 2016, during a season when Callaway would play an important role in helping the Indians reach the World Series, the woman who went on road trips with Callaway received a text message that included a shirtless photo from Callaway taken inside a clubhouse. He was wearing an Indians cap.

“What are you doing right now? Let me see u. I am headed out soon for (a) game,” part of the text message read.

In late 2016 or early 2017, he sent an unsolicited full-frontal nude picture of himself in a locker room to the friend of another woman he was involved with sexually, according to someone who saw the photo and asked about it. The friend worked in the Indians organization at the time.

As The Athletic previously reported, Callaway also sent a former Indians employee suggestive messages on LinkedIn in late December 2015. He also had made a pass at her on the field during the season.

None of the women who interacted with Callaway during his time in Cleveland reported these interactions through any official channels.
 
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That's interesting, Who, I think we're probably about the same age (68 as of yesterday). I grew up in a suburb of Cleveland, a baseball fan since the late '50s, and I never heard or saw Clemente referred to as "Bob." Not saying he wasn't, but I don't think it was widely used in the States.
In 1967 I purchased this 1963 Topps card (among others) at at tiny dirt floor tienda near where we lived. It was still in its wax pack, one card and a piece of bubblegum for a penny. Needless to say, after all that time sitting on the shelf in a tropical environment, the gum had deteriorated, but the card was in mint condition. It was the find of my life, or at least for a ten year old. I mean, here the the hero of the island was sitting quietly for four years and a Yanqui comes along and purchases it for a penny. Many, many years later I decided to liquidate much of my baseball card collection and I reluctantly put this card up for auction on eBay. I was relieved when it was purchased by a man my age, a Puerto Rican who lived not far from where I lived in the mountains overlooking Caguas (which is where Lindor is from...I used to go to watch the home team Criollos play winter league games and have often wondered since if I ever sat near Francisco's grandparents). Anyway, Roberto was often called "Bob" or "Bobby" much to the chagrin of islanders. Eventually Roberto quietly straightened that out, but not before many, many years of baseball cards were issued stateside like this one.

1963-Topps-540-Roberto-Clemente-Baseball-Card.jpg
 
Obviously find it hard to believe the Indians FO knew nothing of Callaways behaviors. At the moment though, it doesn't seem like there is really proof of them doing anything wrong. As others have said, the only thing we know for sure (as far as Tito & CA) is they knew about the consensual affair with a non-MLB affiliated woman.

We'll see what comes of the investigation. Hell, Callaway himself hasn't even been let go yet of his Angels gig.
 
Obviously find it hard to believe the Indians FO knew nothing of Callaways behaviors. At the moment though, it doesn't seem like there is really proof of them doing anything wrong. As others have said, the only thing we know for sure (as far as Tito & CA) is they knew about the consensual affair with a non-MLB affiliated woman.

We'll see what comes of the investigation. Hell, Callaway himself hasn't even been let go yet of his Angels gig.
Francona’s son sure seems to think they did something wrong...
 
Thanks Jup for more complete picture. And, I play devil's advocate usually ... because I hate the press in how they try to spin things (like only reporting at end how Indians were not notified about any of this other than the husband). I try to look at things from all sides.

In all of this, the only real easy offense to fire him with is the reporters who had unwanted sexual advances (crutch stuck in their face or asking for nudes). This is where he is on company time, doing company work and needs to be completely above board. Unfortunately, this is the hardest thing for the Indians to investigate without a complaint because if they are wrong on how far he was taking things, you are feeding meat to the wolves and giving reporters a story that may not be true. If they knew about this (or the Mets found out about an incident in Cleveland) and did not do a full investigation, that is a problem. But, so far, it is just his open secret in Cleveland about his behavior which at the time was being unfaithful.

And, even him sending a woman he is dating a full nude in the locker room is bad but not really a termination offense because it is his private life. It is one thing to do it in an office as someone said because another employee can walk in. But, to snap a pic of yourself as you are changing in a "male" locker room during non-press time (and not getting anyone else) is that a crime? Now, if he shared this to a broader audience on internet, that is corrupting the Indians image. Yet, it was only to a woman who saw him fully already, just checking in to see how things are going that day as many husbands do with their wives at work (without the pic of course). The employee seeing it is why you don't do it but it was her friend who showed it to her not Calloway himself (probably because they were talking about it and the employee asked to see it). But, if a complaint was filed here, Indians should have looked at it (sending porn to those who don't want it that you are not romantically involved with).

As for the "pass" and "suggestive message" to another employee, that is the big grey area of our times and causes HR department headaches. But, note how this was short and sweet and not that descriptive. There is nothing wrong for a non-manager asking someone out from a different department. It is creepy as hell if he is married and 20 years older probably. Yet, I asked out another employee who worked in a different department when I was a low-level manager. You may call it a pass, so should I have been fired? The suggestive language is troubling but how suggestive is it if not really quoted would be my question to see how far he crossed the line.

I don't condone any of this. But, as a manager, I would have talked with him (Tito fined him) but could you fire someone for what is listed other than the reporters? That was the bind Tito was in .. and he couldn't look into the reporter angle (to ask about his relationships and behavior towards them) without killing his team in August with a major distraction for something he did not know about.
 
Obviously find it hard to believe the Indians FO knew nothing of Callaways behaviors. At the moment though, it doesn't seem like there is really proof of them doing anything wrong. As others have said, the only thing we know for sure (as far as Tito & CA) is they knew about the consensual affair with a non-MLB affiliated woman.

We'll see what comes of the investigation. Hell, Callaway himself hasn't even been let go yet of his Angels gig.
This last part (that I put in bold) is important...
People (like Nick Francona) can have opinions & express them all they want, but until the investigation is completed all we are really doing a lot of speculating.

This is NOT a defense of Mickey C (or any other person). The reports so far are rather damming. Maybe this situation with Mickey will sink others too. Maybe not. I just hope we don't put the cart ahead of the horse. I'm sure if any of us were in a troublesome situation we would want the process to play out (& all facts be determined) BEFORE our jobs/ careers get flushed away.
 
Keep this discussion away from terms like "wokeness", "privilege", etc., or it will have to end. Everyone knows - or should know - that those topics inevitably result in a tit for tat escalation that doesn't end well for anyone.

I'm deleting those kind of posts because I don't want folks responding to them.
 
Francona’s son sure seems to think they did something wrong...
Everyone is saying MC’s behavior was the worst kept secret in the team, or whatever.

I think it’s hard to imagine that Tito and CA didn’t know about the behavior. But can that be proved? That’s what we’ll have to see. Are there any smoking gun formal complaints, emails, calls, etc. from anyone about MC’s behavior that proved the organization knew about it and chose to ignore it or cover it up? At the moment no, other than the consensual affair. Which while not ideal, alone, is certainly not a good enough reason for anyone to be losing their jobs.
 
For all the Ivy league polish and modern education that the Shapiros and Antonettis have brought to the industry, it suuuuuure looks like baseball's macho culture remained intact.

So this is my problem: we have a sharp front office full of people who should have known better and they evidently didn't push back hard enough, or didn't care to, who knows. But this is a fragile franchise that is dependent on these adroit front office folks. So we're going to summarily have heads roll and to do what? Replace them with OTHER baseball people? Sorry, I don't see the point. The culture is pervasive. I'd rather keep the folks we have, get them educated and severely reprimanded--"let that be a lesson to you! I don't want to see this happen again, understand?"--than bring in another bunch of bums from somewhere else and start all over.
 
Francona’s son sure seems to think they did something wrong...

Just for a little background on Tito's son, this is an interesting read. I don't know everything but three things stuck out to me is (1) he has had issues in dealing with sexual misconduct in baseball before (so has different sensitivity level than others), (2) he speaks what he thinks is the truth very clearly on twitter -- consequences be damn and (3) I wonder if he felt let down by his dad not backing him before? And, this isn't condemning or negating what he said about Tito, it is just showing that this is not unheard of response from Nick (his style lets say) and shouldn't be taken any more or less seriously as all the other info out there.

 

Rubber Rim Job Podcast Video

Episode 3-14: "Time for Playoff Vengeance on Mickey"

Rubber Rim Job Podcast Spotify

Episode 3:14: " Time for Playoff Vengeance on Mickey."
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