2020-21 Offseason Discussion

Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Kevalier

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I see us trying to praise Antonetti/Chernoff if they didn't know, but I don't feel the same. In the article, it mentions how the gossip was very loud in Indians HQs. At best, Antonetti/Chernoff don't know a ton about their organizational culture. That's not exactly something to be proud of.
Again though, there is a significant distinction between being aware that the pitching coach is a philandering horndog and receiving complaints of sexual harassment. So far, the only accusation involving the front office is that they knew about the consensual affair that Callaway was having with a married woman.
 

Kevalier

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https://www.cleveland.com/tribe/202...of-mickey-callaway-situation-paul-hoynes.html

Hoynes' contention that drawing a difference between a consensual affair and sexual harassment is a "slippery slope" is lunacy. If the distinction between a consensual and non-consensual act isn't viewed as significant to him, then he's either clueless or being disingenuous. Again, Callaway is a philandering pig, but if every baseball team is expected to remove themselves from anyone who cheats on their wife or girlfriend, well, good luck with that. I found this detail interesting:

"GM Mike Chernoff and Francona met with Callaway during a road trip that year to discuss the husband’s complaint. When the team returned home, Antonetti met with Callaway. In the meeting Callaway told him the relationship was consensual.

Antonetti informed the team’s legal and human resource departments after the meeting. They got back to Antonetti, saying that since the affair was consensual, and took place outside the workplace, there was little the organization could do. The complaints by the husband to the Indians stopped after that meeting."

Sounds to me that they handled this particular situation correctly.
 

AZ_

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The organizational culture in the Cleveland front office, outside the actual player development/analytics methods which are among the most respected in the league, is below sub-par to the point of being borderline unacceptable.

It desperately needs fixed. Marketing, Sponsorship, etc.

Its a mess.
 

ncinthenext3

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Does his service?

He served as the commander of a Marine Corps brigades’ scout-sniper platoon deployed in Afghanistan in 2011.

I like to think that affords him a LITTLE credibility on his willingness to call out that culture, which he’s consistently done.
The point was simple. Just because he shares a last name with the skipper it doesn't make him an authority on the matter. I see someone trying to generate followers. As a fellow American I appreciate those that serve our Nation. However, that service makes him no authority on his whiny little social justice crusades. This just in. He's posting that stuff for the money.
 

Steve_424

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I see us trying to praise Antonetti/Chernoff if they didn't know, but I don't feel the same. In the article, it mentions how the gossip was very loud in Indians HQs. At best, Antonetti/Chernoff don't know a ton about their organizational culture. That's not exactly something to be proud of.

Genuinely asking - who is praising them? I'm certainly not. But I also don't think they should lose their jobs unless something concrete comes out.
 

ncinthenext3

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The organizational culture in the Cleveland front office, outside the actual player development/analytics methods which are among the most respected in the league, is below sub-par to the point of being borderline unacceptable.

It desperately needs fixed. Marketing, Sponsorship, etc.

Its a mess.
Maybe we will see some real, actual evidence that supports you feeling this way someday in terms of the Mick thing. After reading some local reports like Hoynes, The Athletic and Twitter isn't enough for me to make that leap. Agreed on the marketing, sponsorship front for sure. They have some problems, some self-inflicted.
 

AZ_

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The point was simple. Just because he shares a last name with the skipper it doesn't make him an authority on the matter. I see someone trying to generate followers. As a fellow American I appreciate those that serve our Nation. However, that service makes him no authority on his whiny little social justice crusades. This just in. He's posting that stuff for the money.

Whiny little social justice crusades like, for example, having the decency to not send women unsolicited sex pics from your office?

Maybe we will see some real, actual evidence that supports you feeling this way someday in terms of the Mick thing. After reading some local reports like Hoynes, The Athletic and Twitter isn't enough for me to make that leap. Agreed on the marketing, sponsorship front for sure. They have some problems, some self-inflicted.

Well, I have family who has worked for the organization. Also a few lifelong friends who still work in the organization and aren't paid to channel their requests through a media relations department with whom I can orchestrate a response in partnership with.

As a former MLB PR employee, perhaps you're putting a bit too much stock into the failure of reporters to even ask hard questions about it.
 

Cassity14

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There was some pretty hard evidence that came out against the Astros players. So far there isn't much of anything against Antonetti/Francona except "they might've/should've knew".

Unless this investigation turns up something more, Callaway will get fired and won't get another MLB job, teams will install culture-modifying programs to try to avoid future instances of situations like this, and everyone will, indeed, move forward.

When the Astros story broke, it was Mike Fiers and other anonymous sources, and that was it.

I understand how this is likely going to play out organizationally. My comment wasn't really directed at that, but rather at the notion that it just wasn't something worth talking about here anymore.

Like, triple digit posts about a hypothetical Jose Ramirez trade return that has been shut down as even being a possibility is acceptable, but discussing legitimate breaking news wasn't. Found it odd.
 

AZ_

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Whiny social justice issues pertains to Tito's kid. We haven't been told there's evidence of the pictures. I like how you lumped those together though.

Well, those of us who actually read about the allegations know there are pictures.

If you didn't, and are just here to cry about SJW's and give us your boring as fuck take about politics and cancel culture, I'll just leave you to it.
 

ncinthenext3

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Well, those of us who actually read about the allegations know there are pictures.

If you didn't, and are just here to cry about SJW's and give us your boring as fuck take about politics and cancel culture, I'll just leave you to it.
Allegations aren't evidence. Fuck. Oh cool. Look I can swear too. I gotta be me.
 

AZ_

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Allegations aren't evidence. Fuck. Oh cool. Look I can swear too. I gotta be me.

In late 2016 or early 2017, he sent an unsolicited full-frontal nude picture of himself in a locker room to the friend of another woman he was involved with sexually, according to someone who saw the photo and asked about it. The friend worked in the Indians organization at the time.
 

AZ_

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Allegations aren't evidence. Fuck. Oh cool. Look I can swear too. I gotta be me.

In the spring of 2014 in Arizona, Callaway met a married woman when she accompanied her son to seek an autograph. She gave Callaway her phone number in the spring of 2015, she says, because Callaway offered to come to her son’s T-ball game and needed directions. As avid baseball fans, she and her husband were initially thrilled.

The woman and Callaway began an affair that was consensual and included Callaway sending her explicit photos and at least one lewd video. The relationship ended when the woman’s husband found out in February 2017. When her husband confronted Callaway via text about the situation, Callaway texted back that he had to inform MLB security because his cell phone was “company property.” (The Athletic viewed this exchange.)




I realize you came here in bad faith, and I hate to pile on. But due respect, what the fuck are you talking about when you say there is no evidence?
 

Anglefan

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What I'm seeing a lot in the way people view this story is most have a hard time differentiating between what we absolutely know now vs. what the actual consciousness at the time was. This type of thing isn't black and white. The absolute truth is almost never immediately obvious and neither are the proper solutions. That's why these conversations are so common these days because it's a very delicate and difficult situation to sort out. People are way too quick to demonize others handling over matters of harassment or assault, but how confident are you at how you would proceed with the exact knowledge at the time the people you're criticizing had?
 

Gson

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What I'm seeing a lot in the way people view this story is most have a hard time differentiating between what we absolutely know now vs. what the actual consciousness at the time was. This type of thing isn't black and white. The absolute truth is almost never immediately obvious and neither are the proper solutions. That's why these conversations are so common these days because it's a very delicate and difficult situation to sort out. People are way too quick to demonize others handling over matters of harassment or assault, but how confident are you at how you would proceed with the exact knowledge at the time the people you're criticizing had?
in context.. not at all.. The trust found within the sources of the information is unknown at best.. At this time, it's more what you want to believe as opposed to facts in evidence of what actually occurred..
 

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