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2020 NBA Draft

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Wiseman's data means nothing though. It was 3 total games.....2 of those were against South Carolina State and UIC. The biggest starter SCS had was 6'8". UIC's match for Wiseman was a 2-star true freshman. I like Wiseman, but his entire evaluation will be based on his HS pedigree and his workouts. Trying to use any of his numbers to draw a conclusion on where he falls in any model based on statistical data is moot to me.

I don't think this is entirely true, in part because his strengths and weaknesses are so stark. But it's true that his 3 games in college mostly reflect the skills that made him the #1 prospect in his class. He scores a lot. He rebounds a lot. He blocks a lot of shots.

I think you are unusually low on Ayton as a prospect. I also don't understand the 3 point shot comment.....Ayton took 30+ 3's as a 7 foot center in his one college season...and he shot 34%. He was one of the very few modern 7 foot prospects who even had game tape of him taking shots from extended range and he also had quality tape there during AAU ball as well. If teams' think Wiseman is as good as Ayton, he should be the #1 pick in this draft......if they think he is better, they should have all have a Wiseman jersey printed out prior to the lottery. :chuckle:

The raw numbers suggested a little bit of shooting ability for Ayton, but most scouts seemed to agree that his mechanics were unlikely to extend to NBA range, and that proved to be correct. I think Wiseman's in a similar boat...more shooting touch than the typical big, but still quite a ways away from making NBA 3's.

As for whether an Ayton-like player should be the #1 pick in this draft, I think that's less clear. Dunk/rebound machine centers are fun, but a lot of teams are finding success with floor spacers and defensive specialists at the 5. I think Okongwu would have a case over Ayton for the same reasons he has a case over Wiseman. Significantly better all-around defender, and noticeably quicker rolling to the basket on offense.

I do think Wiseman should go in the top 5 of a draft like this......I was more so responding to Ayton, as a comparison. I think it would be really unlikely Wiseman would have put up better numbers than Ayton did, had he played 35+ games. Better than Ayton would have been Zion range and I just do not think that is reflective of the type of player Wiseman likely is.

Better numbers in what way? I buy that Wiseman would've probably made fewer than Ayton's 12 threes (but don't see that as an important distinction since neither have NBA range). But what else? Again, we're talking about the #1 prospect in the country, so expectations should, reasonably, be set high.
 
I just don’t believe that landing the next Giannis or LBJ is realistic.

While Gobert, Jokic, Embiid and Simmons are extraordinary players, it seems more likely that we’re able to acquire players of their caliber and build a really good team.

Hell, the Pacers haven’t been bad in 30 years. Sign me up for that right now. Who knows? Maybe you luck into a title with a really good team.
It is realistic, we were close to getting Doncic just a few years ago. We got LeBron, we passed on both Giannis and Kawhi (rightly so at the time). These players are rare but they are around and in positions where we could get them.
also it’s pretty damn likely Wiseman won’t even be better than Drummond, if you want mediocrity you just sign him to a 5 year deal.

we won a championship 4 years ago and you’re already willing to sign up for 30 years of mediocrity
 
It is realistic, we were close to getting Doncic just a few years ago. We got LeBron, we passed on both Giannis and Kawhi (rightly so at the time). These players are rare but they are around and in positions where we could get them.
also it’s pretty damn likely Wiseman won’t even be better than Drummond, if you want mediocrity you just sign him to a 5 year deal.

we won a championship 4 years ago and you’re already willing to sign up for 30 years of mediocrity
I appreciate your optimism, but I do not share it.

I'm not a Wiseman advocate, I'm just advocating taking the guy you think is the best player.

You can't worry about "oh can we win a championship with this guy" because I don't anticipate us winning one for a very long time, if at all during my lifetime (I'm 31).

I just want to Cavs to not be embarrassing, which is all we've been since the '98 lockout when we don't have LeBron (and even sometimes with him), and there doesn't seem to be an end in sight.

Give me Jamal Murray and Nikola Jokic, or Embiid and Simmons, or Gobert and Mitchell and sure I probably won't win a title, but at least I'll get to watch good basketball.
 
I appreciate your optimism, but I do not share it.

I'm not a Wiseman advocate, I'm just advocating taking the guy you think is the best player.

You can't worry about "oh can we win a championship with this guy" because I don't anticipate us winning one for a very long time, if at all during my lifetime (I'm 31).

I just want to Cavs to not be embarrassing, which is all we've been since the '98 lockout when we don't have LeBron (and even sometimes with him), and there doesn't seem to be an end in sight.

Give me Jamal Murray and Nikola Jokic, or Embiid and Simmons, or Gobert and Mitchell and sure I probably won't win a title, but at least I'll get to watch good basketball.

Along these lines, I'll also point out that the Curry/Klay Warriors could've easily topped out as a "good, fun-to-watch team that's not quite a contender." Then through a combination of luck and skill they added Green and Iguodala, who happened to be ideal fits with Curry and Klay, and suddenly they had a dynasty on their hands.
 
Along these lines, I'll also point out that the Curry/Klay Warriors could've easily topped out as a "good, fun-to-watch team that's not quite a contender." Then through a combination of luck and skill they added Green and Iguodala, who happened to be ideal fits with Curry and Klay, and suddenly they had a dynasty on their hands.
Exactly.

Let's just build a good-solid team, and maybe we'll get lucky and contend at some point. If we don't, I'm still fine with that. Just give me some decent basketball.

Hell, the Sixers were just used as an example of a team that's not good enough, but they were just a bounce away from knocking off the eventual champion Raptors last year.

Maybe the Sixers, Jazz, and Nuggets not winning titles with centers as their best players has nothing to do with centers being their best players. 29 teams miss out each year.
 
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eh, if the Cavs don't get a top 2 pick I wouldn't be upset if they traded down and ended up with a guy like Saddiq Bey.
 
eh, if the Cavs don't get a top 2 pick I wouldn't be upset if they traded down and ended up with a guy like Saddiq Bey.

Yeah but who are your top 2? Do you take Edwards?
 
My top 2: Best fits for the Cavs
1. Ball
2. Avdija

My top 2: BPA
1. Ball
2. Wiseman

My top 2: No Baggage (that I'm concerned with)
1. Avdija
2. Edwards
 
My top 2: Best fits for the Cavs
1. Ball
2. Avdija

My top 2: BPA
1. Ball
2. Wiseman


My top 2: No Baggage (that I'm concerned with)
1. Avdija
2. Edwards

I have the same thing. I think Ball and Wiseman are probably the guys with the most star potential, but I think neither is right for the Cavs.

Do you have any idea what the Cavs are thinking with Drummond or what will happen with TT? I just get the feeling Drummond is out as soon as his option is up. He was surprised by the culture of the Cavs and I think he is surprised he is not treated like a superstar? I dunno I just got that from those pressers where he was saying fitting in was harder than he thought, picking up the system was harder than he thought.

If we lose TT and Drummond, maybe a center makes sense. If we only lose 1, probably not. I guess I can't imagine the Cavs prioritizing a center now after not for so long.
 
My big board:

Ball - Great passer and play maker. Able to shoot. Tall for the position. Probably the best player in the draft
Edwards - Tied for best player in the draft. Super Athletic. Young.
Obi Topin - Athletic freak. Able to shoot.

Darkhorse:

Deni:
 
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37% shooting in the NBL is not ability to shoot.

People who were worried about Collins shot selection as a rookie aren't going to like Ball's. He is a straight chucker and from a distance he has no business shooting from. Collins inside the 3 2 pt shots were frustrating, but what about a guy who launches from 30 with terrible form with 15 sec on the clock? We wish Garland had half of Ball's balls.
 
37% shooting in the NBL is not ability to shoot.
That was from the floor.

He was 25% from deep.

I know you know this, I'm clarifying for others.

This was a small sample size mind you, but that's the crazy thing about Ball. We don't have much sample size on him. He's bounced around so much between Chino, Lithuania, SPIRE, and AAU, and he's never actually shot a good percentage anywhere. Some might say it's because of his shot selection, but shouldn't that be alarming, too?

I'd also hesitate to crown Obi as a shoot. He never really shot 3's with much volume in college, although he did have success. The same could be said for Derrick Williams though.

Obi went 43/103 (.417) from deep in his college career while shooting 70.6% from the line
DW went 46/90 (.511) from deep in his college career while shooting 71.9% from the line

Both guys played two seasons although Williams was much younger than Toppin when he came out.

If you're a Toppin fan, you have to latch onto his abilities as a roll/pop guy more than his shooting abilities.
 
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That was from the floor.

He was 25% from deep.

I know you know this, I'm clarifying for others.

This was a small sample size mind you, but that's the crazy thing about Ball. We don't have much sample size on him. He's bounced around so much between Chino, Lithuania, SPIRE, and AAU, and he's never actually shot a good percentage anywhere. Some might say it's because of his shot selection, but shouldn't that be alarming, too?

I was being generous about his shooting by using his overall shooting percentage.
 

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