2020 NBA Draft

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Nathan S

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Got into Hayes and Avdija most recently...



Avdija by himself is a good prospect but in the scheme of the Cavs roster construction the two things the Cavs need most from their wings (shooting and defense) are not his strengths... He's a really good facilitator and would operate best as a point forward.. I can see why Altman likes him but unless the Cavs plan to move on from the current backcourt pairing, it's just not a fit...

However, even if you plug in Porter Jr., to the starting lineup, I still don't think Avdija provides enough shooting, defense or off-the-ball traits to be a current fit..

If you're looking how he would fit best with this roster, I would say off the bench with Sexton...
Not seeing much that would keep Hayes off the top of my board. Shooting? Yeah, his mechanics off the dribble need work, but the fact that he shot 88% from the line last year (and 86% over the last 3 years combined) make me feel confident that with proper coaching he'll be a solid outside shooter sooner or later. Similarly with defense, he gets beat off the dribble now, but the size, athleticism, and reflexes are there for him to develop in that area with good coaching and improving fundamentals. The biggest concern I see is that he's pretty left-hand dominant, but with an 18-year-old it's a bonus to be ambidextrous, not an expectation, so that doesn't faze me too much.
 

Smooth

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Not seeing much that would keep Hayes off the top of my board. Shooting? Yeah, his mechanics off the dribble need work, but the fact that he shot 88% from the line last year (and 86% over the last 3 years combined) make me feel confident that with proper coaching he'll be a solid outside shooter sooner or later. Similarly with defense, he gets beat off the dribble now, but the size, athleticism, and reflexes are there for him to develop in that area with good coaching and improving fundamentals. The biggest concern I see is that he's pretty left-hand dominant, but with an 18-year-old it's a bonus to be ambidextrous, not an expectation, so that doesn't faze me too much.
His right hand is just as much of an issue as Deni's non existent left...

In the same breath, is there anything that you can point to as an elite trait or skillset for Hayes?

His P&R game is definitely his best asset, without a doubt... And with the game trending more so that way then ever, that's important..

However, I can honestly say to me his game didn't jump out to me.. I didn't see the passing like LaMelo or Deni or the explosive scoring like Edwards or the uncanny athleticism for his position like Wiseman... He was good in all those areas, but nothing that made me say special..

This isn't necessarily a knock on Hayes... I think he's a good prospect and has a relatively low floor because of what all he can do... I get he's young and productivity at young ages tend to be indicative of future success, I just don't know if he'll be a top-end guard... I think he'll be more so in the Eric Bledsoe level of PGs, which teams aren't going to complain about but I'm not on that Ringer train of thought where he's the draft's best player..
 

Nathan S

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His right hand is just as much of an issue as Deni's non existent left...

In the same breath, is there anything that you can point to as an elite trait or skillset for Hayes?

His P&R game is definitely his best asset, without a doubt... And with the game trending more so that way then ever, that's important..

However, I can honestly say to me his game didn't jump out to me.. I didn't see the passing like LaMelo or Deni or the explosive scoring like Edwards or the uncanny athleticism for his position like Wiseman... He was good in all those areas, but nothing that made me say special..

This isn't necessarily a knock on Hayes... I think he's a good prospect and has a relatively low floor because of what all he can do... I get he's young and productivity at young ages tend to be indicative of future success, I just don't know if he'll be a top-end guard... I think he'll be more so in the Eric Bledsoe level of PGs, which teams aren't going to complain about but I'm not on that Ringer train of thought where he's the draft's best player..
LaMelo sets a particularly high bar as a passer, but I'd say that's a really strong area for Hayes too. While he's best in the P&R, he certainly isn't shy about making daring, unorthodox plays with the ball either...right now that leads to a lot of turnovers, but if we're talking about upside, I'd much rather roll the dice on a guy who takes those chances even if they don't always work out.

Similarly with scoring, is he elite? Maybe not quite, but 18.7 points per 40 on 59% true shooting is nothing to sneeze at for an 18-year-old guard playing against grown men. Anthony Edwards, for comparison, averaged 23.1 points per 40 on 52% true shooting. Does the higher volume from Edwards make up for the lower efficiency? Maybe, but there's certainly room for debate.
 

The Human Q-Tip

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Got into Hayes and Avdija most recently...



Avdija by himself is a good prospect but in the scheme of the Cavs roster construction the two things the Cavs need most from their wings (shooting and defense) are not his strengths... He's a really good facilitator and would operate best as a point forward.. I can see why Altman likes him but unless the Cavs plan to move on from the current backcourt pairing, it's just not a fit...

However, even if you plug in Porter Jr., to the starting lineup, I still don't think Avdija provides enough shooting, defense or off-the-ball traits to be a current fit..

If you're looking how he would fit best with this roster, I would say off the bench with Sexton...
Playing Devil's Advocate here a bit, but.....

Wouldn't a point forward actually be a very good pairing with Sexton and KPJ? Defense would be a problem still, so you'd have to hope for development there by all three. But offensively, I think it actually might work pretty well. Sexton already gives you strong 3 point shooting from the backcourt, and KPJ may end up being at least decent from back there.
 
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Smooth

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Playing Devil's Advocate here a bit, but.....

Wouldn't a point forward actually be a very good pairing with Sexton and KPJ? Defense would be a problem still, so you'd have to hope for development there by all three. But offensively, I think it actually might work pretty well. Sexton already gives you strong 3 point shooting from the backcourt, and KPJ may end up being at least decent from back there.
My concern stems from all three players are significantly better/more comfortable playing on-ball and none are elite off-ball players, or particularly off-ball shooters..

Larger than that, I also largely believe in two-way players and having three starting players who won't be more than competent defenders, maybe Avdija and KPJ are slightly +, is not a productive way to building a successful team..

I think all this underscores the current roster is more so a collection of talent than actually building a team..
 

Cavatt

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My concern stems from all three players are significantly better/more comfortable playing on-ball and none are elite off-ball players, or particularly off-ball shooters..

Larger than that, I also largely believe in two-way players and having three starting players who won't be more than competent defenders, maybe Avdija and KPJ are slightly +, is not a productive way to building a successful team..

I think all this underscores the current roster is more so a collection of talent than actually building a team..
Both KPJ and Sexton are better catch and shoot players though. It's insane how much better KPJ is off the catch than the dribble. He's way above 40% off the catch and maybe below 30 off the dribble.

I am pretty sure Collin showed he can play off the ball this year.

Denny could be ok, but if we want a guy who can handle, defend, and shoot at the 3, I;d rather have Vassel.
 

Ozone

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Defense has to be the top priority right? definitely outside the top 3 where best player regardless should get the spot even if it means Cavs trade down to get their defender and pick up another asset.
I love Vassell,Okoro,Okongwu and Wiseman as all being high level defenders in the NBA.
I dont like any intl options that much Hayes and Avdija are good offensively Hayes maybe really good but neither fit here as both are meh defenders. I also dont know about Ball or Edwards in the defense department ever caring about defense even though they have size to learn it/ turn it up and both have elite upside offensively.
we cant be looking at too many others unless they love Toppins offense or maybe Halibutons versatility . But beyond that somebody they could get trading down like Stewart, Williams,Ramsey,Green,Nesmith,Hampton ,Tillman,Oturo,McDaniels or Stanley are on the radar.
I like tyler bey or paul reed as a late first early 2nd pick up if they can swing it. especially if the player they take early on is not 1 of the elite upside defenders.
 

Cavatt

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Defense has to be the top priority right? definitely outside the top 3 where best player regardless should get the spot even if it means Cavs trade down to get their defender and pick up another asset.
I love Vassell,Okoro,Okongwu and Wiseman as all being high level defenders in the NBA.
I dont like any intl options that much Hayes and Avdija are good offensively Hayes maybe really good but neither fit here as both are meh defenders. I also dont know about Ball or Edwards in the defense department ever caring about defense even though they have size to learn it/ turn it up and both have elite upside offensively.
we cant be looking at too many others unless they love Toppins offense or maybe Halibutons versatility . But beyond that somebody they could get trading down like Stewart, Williams,Ramsey,Green,Nesmith,Hampton ,Tillman,Oturo,McDaniels or Stanley are on the radar.
I like tyler bey or paul reed as a late first early 2nd pick up if they can swing it. especially if the player they take early on is not 1 of the elite upside defenders.
Those three are my favorites. 2 way potential guys. I think they all might be underrated offensively too. Okoro can pass better than people think, Vassell is very good shooting off the dribble as well as catch and shoot, and Okongwu has very good IQ and great touch
 

Ozone

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Those three are my favorites. 2 way potential guys. I think they all might be underrated offensively too. Okoro can pass better than people think, Vassell is very good shooting off the dribble as well as catch and shoot, and Okongwu has very good IQ and great touch
Wiseman also has to be considered an elite defensive option still despite the small window and also a worthy offensive threat long term even though he seems to somewhat lacks the level of IQ out of the gate and touch Obi and Okongwu have already Wiseman looked to be close to as athletic as both of them. so any of the 3 are my choice with Okoro Vassell Edwards rounding out the top 6 with a wildcard slot for Nesmith or Stewart if they move down in the 7-12 range
 

Derek

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I don't see elite defense when I see Wiseman. He looks much more along the lines of Ayton. Nice numbers, not a net negative, but I'm not sure you can really do much with a non-elite defensive big who isn't a perimeter threat offensively.
 

Ozone

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I don't see elite defense when I see Wiseman. He looks much more along the lines of Ayton. Nice numbers, not a net negative, but I'm not sure you can really do much with a non-elite defensive big who isn't a perimeter threat offensively.
Hmm I dont see Ayton at all at this point looking at the tape. He looks like DH more than anything a guy who has a long ways to go offensively and no jumper but projects to be an elite rim runner/rim protector and lob threat from day 1. 9'4" sr and 7'6"+ ws on an athletic frame is a lock not to bust.
I would prefer Okongwu as far as high floor I think his iq is pretty solid on both sides of the ball and is an exceptional athlete that proved he can defend not only in the paint but really any position with his mobility.
The other thing that intrigues me with Okongwu is his shooting stroke looks like he may become a solid mid range shooter in a couple seasons to add to his touch around the basket.
Obi has the best offensive arsenol right now but his age and the lack of defense make it harder to buy into in the top 5 but maybe at 6
 

DeeThree

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Could Obi Toppin be the next Amare Stoudemire?
 

cabs

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So we have at worst a top 6 pick. Not sure I want us to get the number 1 pick because the draft screams 2013 and the mental scars are still there
 

Derek

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Could Obi Toppin be the next Amare Stoudemire?
That's certainly his archetype, but it seems highly unlikely he ever sniffs that level

Granted development is not linear, but when Amar'e was Toppin's age he was a top 10 player in the league and averaged 37 and 10 in the WCF.

It doesn't mean Toppin can't get there, but it's unlikely.
 
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