2020 Series #5 - Tribe @ ChiSox - Aug 7-9

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CATS44

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Everybody wants small ball, until we play small ball.

No matter how small the difference might be the best possible chance to score one run in a tie game in the eighth inning was to put our best baserunning on second, replacing a plodding DH.

The suggestion that it eliminated Deshields as a defensive replacement is a straw man, because we still had Mercado on the ve still had Mercado on the bench.

Had the move not been made, and Reyes had been unable to score on a sharp single to left, the same people complaining now would still be complaining the other way.
 

Out of the Rafters at the Q

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Everybody wants small ball, until we play small ball.

No matter how small the difference might be the best possible chance to score one run in a tie game in the eighth inning was to put our best baserunning on second, replacing a plodding DH.

The suggestion that it eliminated Deshields as a defensive replacement is a straw man, because we still had Mercado on the ve still had Mercado on the bench.

Had the move not been made, and Reyes had been unable to score on a sharp single to left, the same people complaining now would still be complaining the other way.
  1. I think the improvement in run probability by subbing out Reyes for DeShields is close to zero in that situation.
    1. If Domingo gets out, or gets an XBH, there is no benefit
    2. If Domingo gets a single that scores Reyes from second, there is no benefit.
    3. The only scenarios you're improving your odds is one in which Domingo gets a hit that scores DeShield, but doesn't score Reyes... or multiple defensive errors that generate a run. I think that's a very fine line.
  2. The negatives are:
    1. You are removing one of your best, and hottest, bats from the lineup
    2. You are removing the ability to use DeShields as a pinch runner in a future situation
    3. You are removing the ability to use DeShields as a defensive upgrade
Yes, Mercado was available, but DeShields is still an enormous defensive upgrade when you factor in Domingo Santana playing in the field in extras. It also allows you to pinch run for someone like Santana or Reyes, or pinch hit for someone like Leon.

I'm glad it all worked out, but I'm never one to say the result justifies the less than optimal decision. Personally, I would have liked to see Reyes stay in the game in the 8th. I just think it makes us more likely to win the game if that situation arises again.
 

CATS44

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Let me get this straight.

You didn't want to use Deshields to pinch run in that situation so that he could be available to pinch run?

And then you wanted Reyes available for a situation that screamed for a guy who could lay down a bunt?
 

Out of the Rafters at the Q

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Let me get this straight.

You didn't want to use Deshields to pinch run in that situation so that he could be available to pinch run?

And then you wanted Reyes available for a situation that screamed for a guy who could lay down a bunt?
I mean, you know that's a disingenuous summary of my viewpoint. Right?
 
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I think there is some fear involved. What if there was a base hit and Reyes was stopped at third or got thrown out at the plate, then the Indians went on to lose? Alomar would be criticized for blowing the game. The thinking is if you have a chance to win you have to take your shot because you may not get a better one. So even if the percentages are against it coaches are reluctant not to use a pinch runner in that situation. It's the safe and conventional play but not the smart one, IMO.

Just my suspicion - I can't prove it, but it's always easier to go with conventional wisdom. If it doesn't work you can always say it was still the right move.
 

CATS44

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Clevinger is reported to have violated Covid protocols.
 

CDAV45

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Pitching, pitching, pitching, and defense. Its still a winning combination.
It's not a winning combination if you're the worst offensive team in MLB. At some point in time you have to be able to take advantage of opposing pitchers' mistakes or risk wasting good pitching performances like we've seen this season and in seasons past. This is nothing new for this team and has been a complaint of mine for quite some time now. Michael Martinez should not be getting an at bat when the world series is on the line. We should never see both Sandy Leon and Beau Taylor as the only options at C unless there are a couple of injuries. We should never see someone like Delino DeShields on a roster that already has Mercado, Luplow, Santana, Zimmer, and Johnson waiting for an opportunity. FFS we have Greg Allen who essentially the same player as DeShields. At some point in time players with upside should get preference over someone like DeShields or Allen because at times the talent will be enough.

It's kind of a double edged sword too. Offense puts butts in the seats, and the lack thereof has limited the finances of this organization IMO in an already fickle region due to a outrageously stupid loyalty to a shitty NFL organization. Nobody buys a ticket to watch DeShields play.

I have nothing but praises for this organization when it comes to developing pitching. They are arguably the best, and because so this team doesn't necessarily have to hit like the Twins or Yankees, but you cannot scrape the bottom of the barrel either. There isn't another managerial team in MLB that I would prefer to have, but there needs to be some change in the culture of developing offensive players IMO.
 

Out of the Rafters at the Q

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It's not a winning combination if you're the worst offensive team in MLB. At some point in time you have to be able to take advantage of opposing pitchers' mistakes or risk wasting good pitching performances like we've seen this season and in seasons past. This is nothing new for this team and has been a complaint of mine for quite some time now. Michael Martinez should not be getting an at bat when the world series is on the line. We should never see both Sandy Leon and Beau Taylor as the only options at C unless there are a couple of injuries. We should never see someone like Delino DeShields on a roster that already has Mercado, Luplow, Santana, Zimmer, and Johnson waiting for an opportunity. FFS we have Greg Allen who essentially the same player as DeShields. At some point in time players with upside should get preference over someone like DeShields or Allen because at times the talent will be enough.

It's kind of a double edged sword too. Offense puts butts in the seats, and the lack thereof has limited the finances of this organization IMO in an already fickle region due to a outrageously stupid loyalty to a shitty NFL organization. Nobody buys a ticket to watch DeShields play.

I have nothing but praises for this organization when it comes to developing pitching. They are arguably the best, and because so this team doesn't necessarily have to hit like the Twins or Yankees, but you cannot scrape the bottom of the barrel either. There isn't another managerial team in MLB that I would prefer to have, but there needs to be some change in the culture of developing offensive players IMO.
I guess Santana, Lindor, Jose, Kipnis, Brantley, amd every other offensive presence we've developed don't count.

It's barely a handful of games in. If Lindor were having an MVP season right now instead of being arguably the worst everyday player on our team, i don't think we're even having this discussion.

At some point, it's up to the players to perform.
 

CDAV45

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I guess Santana, Lindor, Jose, Kipnis, Brantley, amd every other offensive presence we've developed don't count.

It's barely a handful of games in. If Lindor were having an MVP season right now instead of being arguably the worst everyday player on our team, i don't think we're even having this discussion.

At some point, it's up to the players to perform.
You're right, at some point the players have to perform, but what if getting off to a poor start offensively is the norm? A player or 2 struggling isn't unusual. The collective offensive performance to this date is astounding. This historically great pitching is being strangled...........again.

You named 3 very good hitters, one that is good at drawing walks, and one that was terribly inconsistent. Outside of Brantley, which OF'ers would you consider to have high offensive performances/upsides? It's a development/drafting area that needs attention........badly.
 

kidduck

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I am as out-dated as small ball so that must be the reason I was beaming at the way the
Tribe played out the 10th inning.
 

Out of the Rafters at the Q

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You're right, at some point the players have to perform, but what if getting off to a poor start offensively is the norm? A player or 2 struggling isn't unusual. The collective offensive performance to this date is astounding. This historically great pitching is being strangled...........again.

You named 3 very good hitters, one that is good at drawing walks, and one that was terribly inconsistent. Outside of Brantley, which OF'ers would you consider to have high offensive performances/upsides? It's a development/drafting area that needs attention........badly.
I mean, if you're going to argue that Santana isn't a very good hitter, I'm not sure we can have a conversation.

He was, by far, the best bat on the team last year and got votes for MVP.

I'm also not a huge fan of shifting goal posts from your original statement of "developing offensive players" to now asking specifically about outfielders. I mean, if you want to ask about outfielders currently on the team, we drafted Naquin and Zimmer. We traded for Mercado and Luplow when other organizations didn't think highly of them. We also drafted Clint Frazier, who's an above average bat.
 
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