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2020 Starting Pitching Discussion

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If you want to get involved with the Braves right now in exchange for a hitter, it’s not Plutko’s value you should be looking at.

It’s Clevinger, Civale and Plesac...

Not saying that’s likely at all, but I believe those scenarios are more interesting to explore for both sides.
 
Nobody is trading anything of value for Adam Plutko until he actually forms into a competent big league caliber starter. In which case, I don't really want to trade him.

Sort of makes it moot.
 
If you want to get involved with the Braves right now in exchange for a hitter, it’s not Plutko’s value you should be looking at.

It’s Clevinger, Civale and Plesac...

Not saying that’s likely at all, but I believe those scenarios are more interesting to explore for both sides.

My gut tells me they deal Clevinger in the offseason. If they cannot extend him, it seems logical with the core of guys they have in the majors now and those knocking on the door.
 
My gut tells me they deal Clevinger in the offseason. If they cannot extend him, it seems logical with the core of guys they have in the majors now and those knocking on the door.
Given his injury history, you would think he’d be open to an extension.

I have no idea if there have even been talks though.

Honestly, with him being a late bloomer, his next contract is likely his only chance to cash in before he ages out.
 
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Given his injury history, you would think he’d be open to an extension.

I have no idea if there have even been talks though.

Honestly, with him being a late bloomer, his next contract is likely his only chance to cash in before he ages out.

Based off of all the previous extensions they've given, last week of March/first week of April of this year would've been the the time frame to have expected to see something get done. We can only speculate if they were close to something or not, but if they were, COVID surely shook things up

Of all the guys they've previously extended, none of them have played under a post-arbitration salary. Like you said, he's had injury issues and he'll be 30 at the end of this year but he's made it past the difficult years. What would the Indians have to offer him to forego on free agency now that he is relatively close to it? He probably stands to make $20m+ combined in his final 2 years of arbitration
 
Because of the present situation, Plutko is our #6.

But if we were in a normal season...162 games and a 26 man roster...

Moss and Allen would be above him, and by late in the season, a healthy TMac and/or JRod could also go into next year also ahead. And then you might even throw in some kid that would be pitching in Akron right now. That's how this org works. SPs who hang around Akron and Columbus a long time don't end up making a dent in our rotation.

In 2015 Plutko was part of the the rotation in Akron...Anderson, Clevinger, Maramondo, Merritt, Plutko. Anderson ended up in Cleveland for 15 starts.

In 2016 Plutko moved to Columbus and got a cup of coffee in Cleveland. Meanwhile, Clevinger saw significant time in Cleveland.

Plutko spent the entire 2017 season in Columbus. Since then, Maramondo and Merritt have gone by the wayside, and Plutko has been passed by Civale and Plutko.

There's a reason for all of that. In an organization that values and develops young starting pitch at least as much as any other, Plutko has treaded water for years. There just isn't enough clay to form a decent pot.
 
“There just isn’t enough clay to form a decent pot.”
Dang if I don’t love you cats.
 
If you don
Because of the present situation, Plutko is our #6.

But if we were in a normal season...162 games and a 26 man roster...

Moss and Allen would be above him, and by late in the season, a healthy TMac and/or JRod could also go into next year also ahead. And then you might even throw in some kid that would be pitching in Akron right now. That's how this org works. SPs who hang around Akron and Columbus a long time don't end up making a dent in our rotation.

In 2015 Plutko was part of the the rotation in Akron...Anderson, Clevinger, Maramondo, Merritt, Plutko. Anderson ended up in Cleveland for 15 starts.

In 2016 Plutko moved to Columbus and got a cup of coffee in Cleveland. Meanwhile, Clevinger saw significant time in Cleveland.

Plutko spent the entire 2017 season in Columbus. Since then, Maramondo and Merritt have gone by the wayside, and Plutko has been passed by Civale and Plutko.

There's a reason for all of that. In an organization that values and develops young starting pitch at least as much as any other, Plutko has treaded water for years. There just isn't enough clay to form a decent pot.
If you don't have enough clay to make a pot..make an ashtray..

Plutko, Moss, Allen and then a listing of several guys make up the depth in the Indians starting pitching ranks.. Some of them are new draftees & very exciting to see.. others, not so much.. A team with a bountiful quanitity of a single position such as "starting pitching" is supposed to use that excess to fill spots they do not have excess.. Plutko fills that spot.. rather well.. over the last three years.. most of his counting statistics have trended in the right direction.. or as a BOR SP.. Alas, the value is in the eye of the beholder..
 
A few knowns...

# 1 and most assuredly, the Braves ARE desperately looking for answers in their starting rotation..

In short.. the Indians have an SP that could help the Braves.. The Braves have a C that could help the Indians.. Adding a minor league player to either or both sides could eventuate in a deal.. only three weeks until the trade deadline, too..

We'll see..
That's all I'm saying. The only catcher in the Indians organization that seems to be a quality prospect is Naylor and I hate to put all my eggs in one basket. Berto is over 30.

Obviously nobody is going to give up a top five prospect for Plutko, but if the Braves are flush with catchers then it's possible a package could be worked out. It's also possible the Braves figure that with their two best starters out for the year they have no chance and they might as well use this year to give their young starters some experience. They might feel their 8-5 start is a fluke so there's no point bringing in a veteran starter.

If Plutko is as bad a pitcher as everyone seems to think then we can easily bring up Moss or Allen if we need a 6th starter and they'll do just as good a job as Plutko. We're not giving up much and we're getting a lottery ticket. Maybe that ticket turns out to be Lou Marson and maybe something more, like the next Roberto Perez or Yan Gomes. Maybe we get a future five-year starter.

We trade a starter who is blocked from pitching now and who has no future with the organization and no options left. They trade a minor league catcher with some upside who is blocked. Their #5 prospect is a catcher so we would be looking for the next catcher.

I'm not sure where Travis Hafner ranked on the Rangers' prospect list in 2002, but I think he was the second or third ranked first baseman in their system. Sometimes guys who were not even in top ten, like Kluber and Clevinger, turn out to be pretty good.

If we don't make a deal where will Plutko be pitching next year?
 
That's all I'm saying. The only catcher in the Indians organization that seems to be a quality prospect is Naylor and I hate to put all my eggs in one basket. Berto is over 30.

Obviously nobody is going to give up a top five prospect for Plutko, but if the Braves are flush with catchers then it's possible a package could be worked out. It's also possible the Braves figure that with their two best starters out for the year they have no chance and they might as well use this year to give their young starters some experience. They might feel their 8-5 start is a fluke so there's no point bringing in a veteran starter.

If Plutko is as bad a pitcher as everyone seems to think then we can easily bring up Moss or Allen if we need a 6th starter and they'll do just as good a job as Plutko. We're not giving up much and we're getting a lottery ticket. Maybe that ticket turns out to be Lou Marson and maybe something more, like the next Roberto Perez or Yan Gomes. Maybe we get a future five-year starter.

We trade a starter who is blocked from pitching now and who has no future with the organization and no options left. They trade a minor league catcher with some upside who is blocked. Their #5 prospect is a catcher so we would be looking for the next catcher.

I'm not sure where Travis Hafner ranked on the Rangers' prospect list in 2002, but I think he was the second or third ranked first baseman in their system. Sometimes guys who were not even in top ten, like Kluber and Clevinger, turn out to be pretty good.

If we don't make a deal where will Plutko be pitching next year?
Plutko, today, is a reliable guy that we've already had to turn to for at least one start--and that's while everyone is healthy. Someone who's okay being in the pen, and then starting on short notice, basically doing whatever you ask of him, and always consistent? That's a nice luxury to have around.

I doubt any teams are giving up anything of value for him in a normal year. In this crazy year with a 60-game regular season, expanded playoffs, and the uncertainty of it finishing? That near-zero price tag is reduced significantly.

I mean, hey, if someone's willing to give us a Yan Gomes prospect for Plutko, I'll pick up the phone. But that's just not happening.

I'll take the bonus to the major league club for this year--and that's coming from someone who's typically on the other side of this argument, willing to flip guys to improve our farm.
 
I mean, hey, if someone's willing to give us a Yan Gomes prospect for Plutko, I'll pick up the phone. But that's just not happening.
It might if their Yan Gomes prospect happens to be their third best catching prospect. I don't know but Cats said the Braves' system is loaded with catchers. Fangraphs Braves' rankings shows three catchers in their top nine prospects. If that's correct we could get one of their top 10 prospects who would only be their third best cathing prospect.

Anybody think Plutko has a future in Cleveland? If the answer is no, and he is a "luxury" as you pointed out, why not try and get a good prospect at a position where we're thin in the farm system? If this was a normal season and we had 80 games to go and our rotation had already made 16 starts each then I would be reluctant to trade a solid #6 starter. But there are 46 games left and our starters have only made 2-3 starts each. Plutko could realistically not get another start this year unless they just want to bump Bieber so he faces the Twins.

Anyway, I've made my point and will let it go.
 
Nobody is trading anything of value for Adam Plutko until he actually forms into a competent big league caliber starter. In which case, I don't really want to trade him.

Sort of makes it moot.

Not sure you noticed but Plutko pitched a scoreless 9th with only a 13 run lead. If Plutko gives up only 10 runs, he would have gotten the save. That is adding value, starter and closer in one pitcher.
 
It might if their Yan Gomes prospect happens to be their third best catching prospect. I don't know but Cats said the Braves' system is loaded with catchers. Fangraphs Braves' rankings shows three catchers in their top nine prospects. If that's correct we could get one of their top 10 prospects who would only be their third best cathing prospect.

Anybody think Plutko has a future in Cleveland? If the answer is no, and he is a "luxury" as you pointed out, why not try and get a good prospect at a position where we're thin in the farm system? If this was a normal season and we had 80 games to go and our rotation had already made 16 starts each then I would be reluctant to trade a solid #6 starter. But there are 46 games left and our starters have only made 2-3 starts each. Plutko could realistically not get another start this year unless they just want to bump Bieber so he faces the Twins.

Anyway, I've made my point and will let it go.
I mean, sure. Find me a team willing to give up a top-10 prospect for Adam Plutko and I completely agree with your scenario. We should trade him.

It's just that your scenario likely doesn't exist.

No intelligent team is going to undervalue a minor league prospect because of the position they have him currently playing defensively--especially when it's at a premium position like C, SS, etc.
 
I mean, sure. Find me a team willing to give up a top-10 prospect for Adam Plutko and I completely agree with your scenario. We should trade him.

It's just that your scenario likely doesn't exist.

No intelligent team is going to undervalue a minor league prospect because of the position they have him currently playing defensively--especially when it's at a premium position like C, SS, etc.
Semantics and words have consequences in a debate.. especially when hyperbole and extremes are imparted as a defining parameter of an argument..

The trading team undervaluing a prospect..for any reason.. no.. not going to happen.. there is no benefit to the team to do so.. in any way..

Appropriately value the prospect used in the acquisition of a desperately needed player (like an SP) is not only likely, but, much more likely especially if the prospect being dealt is limited to a specific spot on defense like catcher.. Very few catchers have the wheels to play a corner OF spot.. but may find "versatility" as a corner infielder.. not many other options..

This is contrasted with the value of the return.. Adam Plutko would be looked at by at least 2/3rds of the ML's as a bona fide BOR kind of SP. Make no mistake.. he's not good enough to crack the best starting rotation in baseball.. but he'd fit right into the right situation.. no one can debate that..

That bears repeating.. Adam Plutko isn't good enough to have a spot in the best starting rotation in major league baseball.. Not a slam against Adam Plutko.. A team like the Braves can see what good to superb control of a combination of a high fastball & high curveball out of the same tunnel can do to major league hitters.. What the Braves have now for their fourth and fifth spot in their rotation.. isn't as good as Adam Plutko.. This is the primary reason the Braves would be willing to make that kind of deal...

If it takes their second or third best catching prospect to acquire.. They make that deal.. The Braves are currently 9-5 and clearly in position to make it to the second season.. Making a deal to improve the current major league club now.. would be a smart move on their part.. way smarter than waiting for the last week in August when eight or nine other teams are going to evaluate their status as possibly a playoff team.. and will be fighting over these other 8 or 9 teams for the remaining half dozen teams that are completely out of the running for what usually turns out to be.. not much..

The usual reason these half dozen or so teams are completely out of it: they don't have ANY pitching..

Thoughts?.
 
Semantics and words have consequences in a debate.. especially when hyperbole and extremes are imparted as a defining parameter of an argument..

The trading team undervaluing a prospect..for any reason.. no.. not going to happen.. there is no benefit to the team to do so.. in any way..

Appropriately value the prospect used in the acquisition of a desperately needed player (like an SP) is not only likely, but, much more likely especially if the prospect being dealt is limited to a specific spot on defense like catcher.. Very few catchers have the wheels to play a corner OF spot.. but may find "versatility" as a corner infielder.. not many other options..

This is contrasted with the value of the return.. Adam Plutko would be looked at by at least 2/3rds of the ML's as a bona fide BOR kind of SP. Make no mistake.. he's not good enough to crack the best starting rotation in baseball.. but he'd fit right into the right situation.. no one can debate that..

That bears repeating.. Adam Plutko isn't good enough to have a spot in the best starting rotation in major league baseball.. Not a slam against Adam Plutko.. A team like the Braves can see what good to superb control of a combination of a high fastball & high curveball out of the same tunnel can do to major league hitters.. What the Braves have now for their fourth and fifth spot in their rotation.. isn't as good as Adam Plutko.. This is the primary reason the Braves would be willing to make that kind of deal...

If it takes their second or third best catching prospect to acquire.. They make that deal.. The Braves are currently 9-5 and clearly in position to make it to the second season.. Making a deal to improve the current major league club now.. would be a smart move on their part.. way smarter than waiting for the last week in August when eight or nine other teams are going to evaluate their status as possibly a playoff team.. and will be fighting over these other 8 or 9 teams for the remaining half dozen teams that are completely out of the running for what usually turns out to be.. not much..

The usual reason these half dozen or so teams are completely out of it: they don't have ANY pitching..

Thoughts?.
First, I think you're overrating Plutko's effectiveness. But hey, maybe I'm underrating him. Maybe you're 100% correct. Maybe the truth is somewhere in the middle. Maybe he breaks out and turns into a right-handed Cliff Lee. I'm not sure it matters for this conversation.

I've specifically framed my argument around this year. Typically, acquiring a fourth starter to help solidify your chances of making the playoffs is something that holds value. However, as you mentioned, this year the Braves are already 9-5. Over half the teams are making the playoffs. They don't need to worry about winning the division to make the playoffs. If they want to make a push, it would only be for a championship. If they want to sell prospects in order to do so, they would target a front-of-rotation kind of guy that they want to trot out there during the playoffs. Adam Plutko just isn't that.
 

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