2020 Starting Pitching Discussion

[Derek]

Semantics and words have consequences in a debate.. especially when hyperbole and extremes are imparted as a defining parameter of an argument..

The trading team undervaluing a prospect..for any reason.. no.. not going to happen.. there is no benefit to the team to do so.. in any way..

Appropriately value the prospect used in the acquisition of a desperately needed player (like an SP) is not only likely, but, much more likely especially if the prospect being dealt is limited to a specific spot on defense like catcher.. Very few catchers have the wheels to play a corner OF spot.. but may find "versatility" as a corner infielder.. not many other options..

This is contrasted with the value of the return.. Adam Plutko would be looked at by at least 2/3rds of the ML's as a bona fide BOR kind of SP. Make no mistake.. he's not good enough to crack the best starting rotation in baseball.. but he'd fit right into the right situation.. no one can debate that..

That bears repeating.. Adam Plutko isn't good enough to have a spot in the best starting rotation in major league baseball.. Not a slam against Adam Plutko.. A team like the Braves can see what good to superb control of a combination of a high fastball & high curveball out of the same tunnel can do to major league hitters.. What the Braves have now for their fourth and fifth spot in their rotation.. isn't as good as Adam Plutko.. This is the primary reason the Braves would be willing to make that kind of deal...

If it takes their second or third best catching prospect to acquire.. They make that deal.. The Braves are currently 9-5 and clearly in position to make it to the second season.. Making a deal to improve the current major league club now.. would be a smart move on their part.. way smarter than waiting for the last week in August when eight or nine other teams are going to evaluate their status as possibly a playoff team.. and will be fighting over these other 8 or 9 teams for the remaining half dozen teams that are completely out of the running for what usually turns out to be.. not much..

The usual reason these half dozen or so teams are completely out of it: they don't have ANY pitching..

Thoughts?.

I would debate that because I don't believe it to be anywhere near the truth. He's a AAAA pitcher, not a bonafide MLB starter.

If you're willing to trade him for a prospect outside an organization's top 30, fine, I'm not. I'm not saying you are, but that's his value. There's little evidence to suggest otherwise.

 

[Urban]

I know Kyle Wright has struggled with his command and Toussaint is yet to put it together (although his last 2 outings have been decent), but Wright is considered a Top 75 prospect in baseball and Toussaint was considered Top 100 before graduating. I don't think Plutko would be anything better than their #5 starter, which he'd be by default considering they only have 4 right now.

If the price is as high as some seem to think, I'm sure the Braves could do better for a bit of a higher cost. Or they use Tomlin as an opener until Hamels maybe comes back.

 

[jup]

All this noise about Clevinger's new pitch.

He is throwing a cutter, something he should have done long ago. Good for him. It will improve his arsenal greatly.

 

[jup]

I know Kyle Wright has struggled with his command and Toussaint is yet to put it together (although his last 2 outings have been decent), but Wright is considered a Top 75 prospect in baseball and Toussaint was considered Top 100 before graduating. I don't think Plutko would be anything better than their #5 starter, which he'd be by default considering they only have 4 right now.

If the price is as high as some seem to think, I'm sure the Braves could do better for a bit of a higher cost. Or they use Tomlin as an opener until Hamels maybe comes back.

Tomlin works just fine

 

[Wham with the Right Hand]

All this noise about Clevinger's new pitch.

He is throwing a cutter, something he should have done long ago. Good for him. It will improve his arsenal greatly.

Great, I'm tired of waiting for this guy to improve. Maybe now that he has a cutter he'll develop into a decent starter.

Tomlin works just fine

As a starter? Can he get through an order three times? He seems to be thriving as a one-inning guy but as a starter?

 

[Derek]

As a starter? Can he get through an order three times? He seems to be thriving as a one-inning guy but as a starter?

No, but neither can Plutko

 

[Wham with the Right Hand]

Just read a column about the huge increase in pitching injuries so far this season.

"An updated comparison from days two through 11 provides additional evidence of the trend, which one executive described as “alarming.” Nearly three times as many pitchers were placed on the IL compared to the same window a year ago, and more than twice as many compared to any of the previous 10 seasons."

If this continues the Indians' phones may be ringing off the hook. Knock on wood, but so far the Tribe pitchers have avoided any injuries. If I'm Tito/Sandy I would limit the starters to about 90 pitches. They have a bigger bullpen than usual - why not use it, at least in the early going.

Carlos Rodon of the White Sox is on the IL. He pitched against the Indians last series. We need to be very careful with our starters.

The Braves might not be the only team in dire need of another starter before the trade deadline arrives.

 

[jup]

Great, I'm tired of waiting for this guy to improve. Maybe now that he has a cutter he'll develop into a decent starter.
As a starter? Can he get through an order three times? He seems to be thriving as a one-inning guy but as a starter?

He is probably not a reliable 3 times through the order guy. But he is better than when he left Cleveland. And most 4 & 5 guys aren't this day and age anyway. So managers don't expect three times through the order every start when they take the hill.

Tomlin found out that he was behind the times when he had to go out onto the open market and started trying to play catch up. Has done the right things to improve in several ways. Like Tomlin, he is a good guy and one that is willing to swallow his pride to move forward.

 

[Wham with the Right Hand]

No, but neither can Plutko

He went six innings against the White Sox, facing 23 batters and throwing 86 pitches. That's 2.5 times and he could have come out for the seventh inning.

If you're talking about last year's Adam Plutko I would agree. Supposedly he's improved his curveball and is a better pitcher, but we haven't seen him pitch enough to confirm that. Like I said, he doesn't have a job except to sit and wait.

How do you bold stuff?

 

[jup]

Highlight it with your mouse and then click on the B in the upper left corner of the tool bar

 

[Derek]

He went six innings against the White Sox, facing 23 batters and throwing 86 pitches. That's 2.5 times and he could have come out for the seventh inning.

If you're talking about last year's Adam Plutko I would agree. Supposedly he's improved his curveball and is a better pitcher, but we haven't seen him pitch enough to confirm that. Like I said, he doesn't have a job except to sit and wait.

How do you bold stuff?

If you want to make judgements based on one start then I see no reason to continue this conversation. We're simply too far apart philosophically.

 

[jup]

He went six innings against the White Sox, facing 23 batters and throwing 86 pitches. That's 2.5 times and he could have come out for the seventh inning.

If you're talking about last year's Adam Plutko I would agree. Supposedly he's improved his curveball and is a better pitcher, but we haven't seen him pitch enough to confirm that. Like I said, he doesn't have a job except to sit and wait.

How do you bold stuff?

Plutko has improved make no doubt about it. He has started to follow the lead of the "new school wave" of pitchers that have gone before him in the Cleveland org.

How good he is, hard to say until he gets regular turns in a rotation. And he may not have much trade value as a result of that lack of exposure. But underestimating him will only lead to whining when he is performing in another teams rotation.

He is just caught in what many have faced trying to crack the Cleveland rotation. Lots of very good pitchers ahead of him

 

[Wham with the Right Hand]

Plutko has improved make no doubt about it. He has started to follow the lead of the "new school wave" of pitchers that have gone before him in the Cleveland org.

How good he is, hard to say until he gets regular turns in a rotation. And he may not have much trade value as a result of that lack of exposure. But underestimating him will only lead to whining when he is performing in another teams rotation.

He is just caught in what many have faced trying to crack the Cleveland rotation. Lots of very good pitchers ahead of him

So the questions are:

1. Has he improved significantly?
2. Do the Braves realize he improved?
3. Has he improved enough for them to want him to fill the last spot in their rotation?
4. If so, are they willing to give up a blocked prospect that is attractive to the Indians?
5. Are the Indians so concerned about the big increase in pitching injuries that they are not comfortable trading Plutko?
6. Do they have anybody at Eastlake like Moss or Allen that they feel could do as good a job as Plutko if they needed to bring him up?

That's a lot of "yesses" (and one no) that have to line up for a deal to happen. I'd say the chances are slim although there seem to be some elements in place.

 

[Wham with the Right Hand]

Highlight it with your mouse and then click on the B in the upper left corner of the tool bar

Thanks, I knew that but it wasn't working because those icons were grayed out. Then I figured out I needed to click the gear icon on the far right to bring them up.

 

[Gson]

Plutko has improved make no doubt about it. He has started to follow the lead of the "new school wave" of pitchers that have gone before him in the Cleveland org.

How good he is, hard to say until he gets regular turns in a rotation. And he may not have much trade value as a result of that lack of exposure. But underestimating him will only lead to whining when he is performing in another teams rotation.

He is just caught in what many have faced trying to crack the Cleveland rotation. Lots of very good pitchers ahead of him

Agree with this..

The theory on tunneling is clearly why Plutko has moved to a high fastball (his normal fastball) and the 12/6 curve ball.. out of the same spot.. and through the same tunnel.. As the league becomes more and more aware of his stuff.. he'll be more hittable..

W/R to his spot.. he's a BOR.. back of the rotation.. His first duty as a BOR SP is to keep his team in the game he's pitching in for as long as he can.. Typically, most teams are THRILLED with a five and fly guy, but, Plutko can give that one extra inning.. Third time through the order isn't his strong suit.. it isn't many pitchers who are much better's strong suit as well.. Make no mistake.. Plutko is a Major Leaguer. & we agree.. he's just not good enough for the Cleveland rotation..

Starting pitching remains theee # 1 value across the board in the Major Leagues.. A return of a prospect outside of a teams top ten is the most likely.. someone with issues such as returning to health.. blocked in their currect club's depth, having no options to allow the club to manipulate their roster and/or limited by position versatility..

Thoughts?