2021 Around MLB: Return of the Dead Ball Era

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CATS44

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Good points, coach.

If Jose decides not to extend, he leaves a lot of money on the table. ($15-20 mil?)...AND he risks that an injury or sudden collapse of production destroys
his future earnings.

Jose will be 31 yrs old when his two options are up. What is his earning power at that point in time?
 

CATS44

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Jose will get his $30 mil AAV at age 31, if there is no extension....if he stays healthy and produces, and wants to play in a big market....but not one cent is guaranteed, except for next year's option.

*****************

It might be nice to start thinking about contending now and next year, instead of always thinking about the future.

No realistic trade for Jose makes this team better in 2022 and 2023. No realistic trade would make the team better and save the Guardians money over the next two years.
 

CATS44

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Not every player wants to play out the string and become a FA.

And the top clients for Joses agent seldom, if ever, do.

The agents name is Rafa Nieves, whose specialty is extending contracts for his Latin clients.

Salvadore Perez is one, and has signed not one, but two extensions with KC.

Also, Gregory Polanco and Francisco Cervelli with Pittsburgh.

And Rougned Odor with Texas.

Not to mention Jose with Cleveland.

All of them 'left money on the table' by choosing long term security. All of them eschewed the bright lights of the big market teams on the coasts.
 

sportscoach

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I would be all in for keeping Jose Ramirez.. YOU HAVE THIS ABSOLUTELY WRONG !!.. QUIT CHANGING WORDS TO FIT A CONCURRENT PATH THAT I AM EXTOLLING.. JUST STOP IT !!

History says BS on JRam resigning here....

and your math is creative if not flawed:

JRam's representation will want his client to achieve at least an AAV of $30 MM/ year.. Five or six years: NOT 4!! All of it guaranteed.. no team options..player determined opt outs.. That includes the 2022 and 2023 seasons. If it doesn't.. NO EXTENSION! @ five years an extension looks like this: 11 + 13 + 3 seasons at $ 42 MM = Five years @ $ 30 MM AAV = $ 150 MM. The only change you'll see with this would be a possible 6th year.. making the it 4 season @ $ 39 MM plus the two option years..

There is NO MONEY BEING LEFT ON THE TABLE by Jose Ramirez. Any extension will make that moot.

You've watched player after player after player walk out of Cleveland to riches elsewhere. All the while, claiming they want end their careers on the North Coast.. Thome, CC, Lofton, Albert, Manny, Lindor.. etc etc etc.. (for every extended player..I'll show you ten that didn't) Every one of them has professed their intent to be an Indian for life.. The truth of the matter.. they'll be Indians for life as long as the Indians pay fair market rates.. perhaps a little below as a minor discount.. but not enough for it to matter.. When a player is honest enough to claim he's going to become a FA.. he is CASTIGATED as a NON TEAM MEMBER.. AS SELFISH. AS A BASTARD.. So.. why would any player make a statement to the contrary????.. because they want to be harangued and criticized by the tens of people who read the Cleveland Plain Dull?.. who listen to big mouth drennan?.. read the mindless scribblings of terry pluto?.. Jeff schudell?.. any of them have a kind word to say about a departing player?.. (don't answer this.. anyone who's within ear shot or has a computer knows this to be true)

Sadly.. you know I'm not a fan of trading star players..they're the one teams rely on to lead the team to wins that matter.. but.. to repeat the out going mayor's words.. "..we know what the problems are.. we've known what they are for years.. We know what the solutions are.. we've known those for years, too.. It is what it is..."

So quit throwing bravado and non-binding gossip about tea leaves and inside dope..because it's all tripe.. Jose Ramirez will remain in a cleveland uniform as long as he's doesn't claim he's leaving.. If the CleFO decides to push it with the leverage they're "only" going to pay him $ 24 MM over the next two years.. it will hasten his departure.. cutting our collective noses to spite our face..

So it might be worthwhile to consider realistic trades that would protect the team's future..

..as much as I wouldn't want it to happen..

Do some math....at the current moment he is only going to get 24 million over the next two seasons, the contract extension would replace the next two seasons at 24 million per season over 6 seasons (likely with a team option with a buyout for year 6). The word is replace the next two seasons so do the math....(year of contract)

11 (22) +13 (23) +30 (24)+30 (25)+30 (26)+30 (27) equals 144...

With the new contract

24 (22) + 24 (23) + 24 (24) + 24 (25) + 24 (26) + 24 (27) equals 144

So he gets the 144 million over that time period... so he loses absolutely no money if he signs the extension I have offered here. Indians have 22 and 23 under their control, he cannot change how much he is getting unless the Indians offer something different. So signing a 6 year 24 million per season would give him the same amount of money over the life of the contract that he would have seen in free agency as well.
 

CATS44

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Do some math....at the current moment he is only going to get 24 million over the next two seasons, the contract extension would replace the next two seasons at 24 million per season over 6 seasons (likely with a team option with a buyout for year 6). The word is replace the next two seasons so do the math....(year of contract)

11 (22) +13 (23) +30 (24)+30 (25)+30 (26)+30 (27) equals 144...

With the new contract

24 (22) + 24 (23) + 24 (24) + 24 (25) + 24 (26) + 24 (27) equals 144

So he gets the 144 million over that time period... so he loses absolutely no money if he signs the extension I have offered here. Indians have 22 and 23 under their control, he cannot change how much he is getting unless the Indians offer something different. So signing a 6 year 24 million per season would give him the same amount of money over the life of the contract that he would have seen in free agency as well.
Plus, in the first case, not one cent, beyond the present option...which will be taken...is guaranteed.

If Jose does not sign an extension, he is risking $133 mil for no reason at all, unless he and his agent think he is likely to get a lot more than $144 mil by going to free agency.
 

sportscoach

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@The Human Q-Tip

Since you know about unions and whatnot, pretend you were JRams agent on this, he is contractually signed for 11 and 13 million respectively over the next two seasons via team option years, so the power is with the team over that time period. Would you consider taking a 6 year/144 contract and replacing the first two seasons with essentially 24 million a season?

@Gson

What you are forgetting is the Indians have control over his contract in 22 and 23, so if he wants better pay, he will have to take the offer or wait until he is a free agent. Plus if you never noticed Indians and Rays sign more contract extensions than any other organization. Almost all the names you mentioned earlier had their early years extended... Jacobs signed most of the 90s team before Arbitration and buying a couple seasons of free agency as well... look at the contracts and most of the nucleus of the 16 world series was signed to a contract extension. Indians end up with most players they want to keep signed until their early 30s and they come up in their early to mid 20s, so they have them usually 7-8 seasons normally. That's a great strategy for a small market team...
 

The Human Q-Tip

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@The Human Q-Tip

Since you know about unions and whatnot, pretend you were JRams agent on this, he is contractually signed for 11 and 13 million respectively over the next two seasons via team option years, so the power is with the team over that time period. Would you consider taking a 6 year/144 contract and replacing the first two seasons with essentially 24 million a season?

Union negotiations and the particulars of JRam's contract situation are two completely different things. In the overwhelming majority of unions, employees obviously don't negotiate their individual compensation packages -- all that stuff is contained in the CBA, and everyone with the same job title/classification gets paid the same (basically). Professional sports are unusual in having both a master CBA contract and permitting individual employees to negotiate their own compensation.

In other words, my knowledge of collective bargaining doesn't really give me any additional insights into what JRam should do in the situation you present. My ordinary fan opinion, just off the cuff, is that it is a decent offer. But I'd certainly be open to being convinced otherwise.
 

Derek

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Don’t waste your time @sportscoach. The math of a Jose extension and why it makes sense for all involved has been laid out numerous times.

If there’s anybody left who doesn’t understand, they likely don’t want to.
 

CATS44

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I dont know if Jose will sign an extension that this org will be able to afford.

On one hand, gson is correct. Few elite ball players extend with mid and small market teams...and those extensions have usually been disastrous for the team. (The FO is quite aware)

On the other hand, there are several factors that seemingly point to an extension. One is his agents track record.

Two is some of the stuff that Bimbo has said about not only Jose, but also the pre covid negotiations with Lindor.

Three is that the Indians have been able to extend a few players in the past...and they did resign Lofton as a FA when he was perhaps the best one on the market.

Four is JRam, himself. Jose is probably the most anonymous elite player in baseball...and seemingly likes it that way. He is no self promoter. He likes the spotlight in games, but not when he's off the field. Even Cleveland fans know nothing about him. If you look him up on Wikipedia, the only thing listed under his personal life is that he has a younger brother in the org. Other than that, nada.

If he was money centered, he would do endorsements. But first, he would have to learn command of English. (That is not a knock.) Im sure that this has been discussed with his agent, who used his own bilingualism to start his career and convince Latin players to trust him as their mouthpiece/advocate.

Jose may be the rare player/person that really doesn't give a rats behind about money.

So I dont know. Bimbo says 70%. Gson says...emphatically...zero. My guess is that the odds are closer to Bimbos. If I was still a betting man, I'd put my money on an extension, esp since I'd get pretty good odds, because most folks on the outside would side with gson's take.

A Vegas line might be something like 10-1 against, and Im figuring maybe even money, so that would be a wise bet to make.

*********

One thing about an extension.

Given the name change....it would be a lift off for a new era. Jose, the face of the Guardians, even if he doesn't talk much.

If Jose wants to be a Guardian, a lot of folks who are upset today will want to be a GUARDIAN, too.

From a baseball standpoint, a young, but generally obscure (to Cleveland fans) name like Laureano, Mullins, or Reynolds would be a huge addition.

But from a PR view, nothing would beat a JRam extension going into a new era.
 

CalBuckeyeRob

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Avoiding the small possibility that injury or performance drop-off could change his situation in 2 years provides some incentive to strike an extension now. How much that Jose Ramirez thinks that is worth remains to be seen.
 

sportscoach

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Avoiding the small possibility that injury or performance drop-off could change his situation in 2 years provides some incentive to strike an extension now. How much that Jose Ramirez thinks that is worth remains to be seen.

His agent just got Perez resigned with the Royals and the agent is known for resigning players with their current clubs if they like to play there.. The Royals are a similar market as Cleveland so it's no surprise if JRam wants to stay here, his agent knows how to make deals within the smaller markets and as has been laid out, the contract is within reason for the organization as well...
 

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I honestly believe both JRam and the Guardians have mutual interest in an extension, but the only thing that gets it done is if the tribe meets JRams demands or if he accepts their "final" offer. That's it. It's solely up to JRam to say YES. He says yes if the tribe meets his demands.... Will they??? Will they get close enough for JRam to acquiesce?

JRam is driving the car and the brass are paying for gas..
 

sportscoach

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I honestly believe both JRam and the Guardians have mutual interest in an extension, but the only thing that gets it done is if the tribe meets JRams demands or if he accepts their "final" offer. That's it. It's solely up to JRam to say YES. He says yes if the tribe meets his demands.... Will they??? Will they get close enough for JRam to acquiesce?

JRam is driving the car and the brass are paying for gas..

The Guardians have some say in the contract since the first two seasons of the would be extension is under the Guardians, it's either take the 24 million that's left on the contract and bet on himself to get more or take the 24 per season over 6 years. I'd so take the guaranteed money personally but I am not a money first person.
 

Gson

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@The Human Q-Tip

Since you know about unions and whatnot, pretend you were JRams agent on this, he is contractually signed for 11 and 13 million respectively over the next two seasons via team option years, so the power is with the team over that time period. Would you consider taking a 6 year/144 contract and replacing the first two seasons with essentially 24 million a season?

@Gson

What you are forgetting is the Indians have control over his contract in 22 and 23, so if he wants better pay, he will have to take the offer or wait until he is a free agent. Plus if you never noticed Indians and Rays sign more contract extensions than any other organization. Almost all the names you mentioned earlier had their early years extended... Jacobs signed most of the 90s team before Arbitration and buying a couple seasons of free agency as well... look at the contracts and most of the nucleus of the 16 world series was signed to a contract extension. Indians end up with most players they want to keep signed until their early 30s and they come up in their early to mid 20s, so they have them usually 7-8 seasons normally. That's a great strategy for a small market team...
WRONG. JUST F&*ing WRONG

It is defined in the comments regarding AAV @ 30 MM per year.. over 5 or 6 years.... "11 + 13 + [3*42] = $ 150 MM over five years.."

It is further commented that the CleFO WILL NOT AND DOES NOT HAVE LEVERAGE of the two option years.. They can pay the money and watch as a team that HAD (<past tense) a leader plays his last two years in a Cleveland uniform... or trade him.. Trading him before the start of his two year clock..would be most beneficial to the long term needs of the team..

(now it can be stated for the 822nd time that no trades are going to be made that don't improve the club in 2022.. no one can read that comment less than a 100 times and not get it)..

Coach...DON'T put your words.. words that attempt to keep JRam w/ and extension in my comments.. MY COMMENTS ADDRESSES THE TWO OPTION YEARS.. and the realistic need to consider a trade of JRam..

w/r to Rays contract extension(s).. with the going rate for star players.. list the number that have signed for $ 30 plus MIILION AAV.. for any length of time.. let alone an extension..

OPEN YOUR EYES.. My comments aren't about JRam signing an extension.. it's about what it's going to take to prepare for LIFE AFTER JRam and WHY A PLAN SHOULD BE IN PLACE.. Sticking your head in the sand because you want JRam to be resigned to an extension to the exclusion of EVERY OTHER POSSIBILITY is foolishness..

Sheesh..
 

sportscoach

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WRONG. JUST F&*ing WRONG

It is defined in the comments regarding AAV @ 30 MM per year.. over 5 or 6 years.... "11 + 13 + [3*42] = $ 150 MM over five years.."

It is further commented that the CleFO WILL NOT AND DOES NOT HAVE LEVERAGE of the two option years.. They can pay the money and watch as a team that HAD (<past tense) a leader plays his last two years in a Cleveland uniform... or trade him.. Trading him before the start of his two year clock..would be most beneficial to the long term needs of the team..

(now it can be stated for the 822nd time that no trades are going to be made that don't improve the club in 2022.. no one can read that comment less than a 100 times and not get it)..

Coach...DON'T put your words.. words that attempt to keep JRam w/ and extension in my comments.. MY COMMENTS ADDRESSES THE TWO OPTION YEARS.. and the realistic need to consider a trade of JRam..

w/r to Rays contract extension(s).. with the going rate for star players.. list the number that have signed for $ 30 plus MIILION AAV.. for any length of time.. let alone an extension..

OPEN YOUR EYES.. My comments aren't about JRam signing an extension.. it's about what it's going to take to prepare for LIFE AFTER JRam and WHY A PLAN SHOULD BE IN PLACE.. Sticking your head in the sand because you want JRam to be resigned to an extension to the exclusion of EVERY OTHER POSSIBILITY is foolishness..

Sheesh..

How does the organization not have leverage when the Guardians can decide on paying him 11 million and 13 million or not... he has no guarenteed money at the current moment and the control over 22 and 23 is in the Guardians hands...
 

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