2021 Minor League Thread

[FFRva]

If my last spot is between OGonz and HRam, it's OGonz every time...

I have a hunch though we may see a trade like we did with Mark Mathias a couple seasons ago.

I'm over HRam. I know he makes solid contact but he doesn't lay off pitches either and he plays probably the worst defense I can recall off the top of my head. I mean I might take a mid to late 30s Manny Ramirez in the OF over him.

Ideally at the major league level give me one of HRam, Mercado, Zimmer and that one needs to be able to play multiple OF spots, run, and field. So goodbye HRam.

 

[BimboColesHair]

My continuing concern with Gonzalez:

Prior to this season he was a walking clone of a Harold Ramirez type prospect.

Harold's career minor league stats prior to breaking into the MLB:

.303/.358/.422 slash, 15% K rate, 5.9% BB rate

Oscar's prior to this season:

.277/.305/.416 slash, 22% K rate, 3.5% BB rate

Oscar is not a good defender, similar to Harold, profiles more as a DH, has limited speed, and does not have good on-base skills. I've already discussed his inability to consistently hit off speed ad nauseum in here as well. The power he showed this year, which was non-existent prior to this year, has to stick around the same level for him to be a league average hitter in the MLB, unless he all of a sudden starts drawing walks at a rate never seen from him.

So, are you buying that a guy who slugged .416 in his first 400 minor league games with no clear trend line of improvement is closer to that level or the .542 mark he posted this season in 121 games?

Truth usually lies in the middle, which makes him just a replacement level guy, like Harold, with his lack of other skills at the plate and his limitations defensively.

So do you gamble that the power shown in 1 season is real, or protect a different player with a cleaner track record with a 40 man spot?

 

[CATS44]

My continuing concern with Gonzalez:

Prior to this season he was a walking clone of a Harold Ramirez type prospect.

Harold's career minor league stats prior to breaking into the MLB:

.303/.358/.422 slash, 15% K rate, 5.9% BB rate

Oscar's prior to this season:

.277/.305/.416 slash, 22% K rate, 3.5% BB rate

Oscar is not a good defender, similar to Harold, profiles more as a DH, has limited speed, and does not have good on-base skills. I've already discussed his inability to consistently hit off speed ad nauseum in here as well. The power he showed this year, which was non-existent prior to this year, has to stick around the same level for him to be a league average hitter in the MLB, unless he all of a sudden starts drawing walks at a rate never seen from him.

So, are you buying that a guy who slugged .416 in his first 400 minor league games with no clear trend line of improvement is closer to that level or the .542 mark he posted this season in 121 games?

Truth usually lies in the middle, which makes him just a replacement level guy, like Harold, with his lack of other skills at the plate and his limitations defensively.

So do you gamble that the power shown in 1 season is real, or protect a different player with a cleaner track record with a 40 man spot?

IMO its a no brainer. Nobody that I can find has ever felt that Gonzalez was a prospect. One year doesn't change, esp since his biggest hole was lack of OBP...and still is.

*************

I dont think we have to worry about Harold taking up a roster spot. IF the FO still wants him (Heaven only knows why they would), they can DFA him, and still have a decent shot at keeping him. Does anybody really think a team would pick him up on waivers before the R5?

At the very best, Harold is one of those types that goes thru waivers multiple times this winter.

 

[BimboColesHair]

Guess I missed where I said I'd keep Harold Ramirez on the roster?

 

[Criznit]

My continuing concern with Gonzalez:

Prior to this season he was a walking clone of a Harold Ramirez type prospect.

Harold's career minor league stats prior to breaking into the MLB:

.303/.358/.422 slash, 15% K rate, 5.9% BB rate

Oscar's prior to this season:

.277/.305/.416 slash, 22% K rate, 3.5% BB rate

Oscar is not a good defender, similar to Harold, profiles more as a DH, has limited speed, and does not have good on-base skills. I've already discussed his inability to consistently hit off speed ad nauseum in here as well. The power he showed this year, which was non-existent prior to this year, has to stick around the same level for him to be a league average hitter in the MLB, unless he all of a sudden starts drawing walks at a rate never seen from him.

So, are you buying that a guy who slugged .416 in his first 400 minor league games with no clear trend line of improvement is closer to that level or the .542 mark he posted this season in 121 games?

Truth usually lies in the middle, which makes him just a replacement level guy, like Harold, with his lack of other skills at the plate and his limitations defensively.

So do you gamble that the power shown in 1 season is real, or protect a different player with a cleaner track record with a 40 man spot?

I think I give the edge to OGonz for a pretty simplistic reason, he doesn't turn 24 until next year. OK, January.. Someone will be giving him a chance at some point next season IMO, and Harold (27 years old) isn't much of a roadblock.. I rather roll the dice with OGonz and if he cant cut it, we should be able to acquire a Harold type player fairly easily if it comes to that.

That said, we will trade him in a second IMO if someone wants him.

If not rostered I do not see anyway we get a chance to see if it was a blip on the radar or he has found a way to tap into that power. He needs to get with Alex Call and copy his offseason routine.

 

[BimboColesHair]

I think I give the edge to OGonz for a pretty simplistic reason, he doesn't turn 24 until next year. OK, January.. Someone will be giving him a chance at some point next season IMO, and Harold (27 years old) isn't much of a roadblock.. I rather roll the dice with OGonz and if he cant cut it, we should be able to acquire a Harold type player fairly easily if it comes to that.

That said, we will trade him in a second IMO if someone wants him.

You guys aren't reading that right.

I'm not asking if you'd take Oscar or Harold. I am just comparing 2 players, one fans want off the team ASAP and one fans want on the team ASAP, and how they are similar with similar profiles as limited players.

And then I am asking if you'd take the gamble on Oscar's 1 year of power over exposing another rule 5 eligible guy or adding a different MLB level talent.

 

[Criznit]

You guys aren't reading that right.

I'm not asking if you'd take Oscar or Harold. I am just comparing 2 players, one fans want off the team ASAP and one fans want on the team ASAP, and how they are similar.

And then I am asking if you'd take the game on Oscar's 1 year of power over exposing another rule 5 eligible guy or adding a different MLB level talent.

I know you aren't saying one or the other, but that was sort of the central premise of this discussion originally.

Harold's spot could and should go to somebody else IMO, if we are deciding between the 2 (see way above) it's OGonz for me. There are certainly other players to be rostered over OGonz, some may not even be in the org currently.

 

[BimboColesHair]

For the record, I don't think Oscar is added.

We are having this same conversation we are having with regards to Harold Ramirez 2 or 3 years from now if he is.

I don't think his game translates to the MLB level at all and he doesn't do enough in the field to justify some of his offensive short comings and sticking in a lineup. I hope he proves me wrong, he's a great kid who works hard and deserves a shot. Just don't think it'll be with Cleveland.

 

[FFRva]

For the record, I don't think Oscar is added.

We are having this same conversation we are having with regards to Harold Ramirez 2 or 3 years from now if he is.

I don't think his game translates to the MLB level at all and he doesn't do enough in the field to justify some of his offensive short comings and sticking in a lineup. I hope he proves me wrong, he's a great kid who works hard and deserves a shot. Just don't think it'll be with Cleveland.

I'm not clamoring for OGon on the roster just willing to ride with the FO if they want to give him a look over HRam because of youth and hope for some light go on upside type deal due to his age.

If I'm talking internal options solely, Richie is the guy I'm hoping to see in the OF of the guys knocking at the door in AAA. Again strictly internal options, come end of next season if we have Palacios, Straw, Valera OF I'd be mad stoked but I understand that's probably a tad unrealistic. Also sets the team up to be a tad too heavy from the left side (at least Richie and Valera's career splits look pretty good so hopefully that translates up the ladder).

 

[KluberSociety]

Valera (and Rocchio) seem more like September 2022/2023 callups. Valera got his first taste of AA and struck out 30% of the time, which means he'll probably start out at AA and then have a chance to prove himself for a fast AAA promotion. The organization seems very methodical and meritocratic with promotions so it'd be surprising if he was able to "graduate" AA in offseason.

Palacios and Kwan will likely get a shot to at least make the case for nabbing one of the OF slots in Spring Training, assuming another one gets filled somehow. Given Richie getting the OF time recently, seems like that's the organization's plan for him.

 

[CATS44]

I think we got the conversation confused.

Harold isn't gonna make the 40 man.

The question I raised was would you rather protect Noel or Gonzalez.

Without thinking twice, I'd choose Noel.

 

[Gson]

Valera (and Rocchio) seem more like September 2022/2023 callups. Valera got his first taste of AA and struck out 30% of the time, which means he'll probably start out at AA and then have a chance to prove himself for a fast AAA promotion. The organization seems very methodical and meritocratic with promotions so it'd be surprising if he was able to "graduate" AA in offseason.

Palacios and Kwan will likely get a shot to at least make the case for nabbing one of the OF slots in Spring Training, assuming another one gets filled somehow. Given Richie getting the OF time recently, seems like that's the organization's plan for him.

While there may be data supporting the following.. it's not know at this time...

Whenever Cleveland has a void/opening.. and they believe their meritorious prospect is NOT ready.. a prospect or NRI or vet pickup fills the slot until such time as the more meritorious prospect is ready for an opportunity. This permits the prospect the opportunity to hone their skills without the pressure of performance at the big league level & play everyday. Mind you.. there is performance pressure.. just not the highest.. In the context of Valera and Rocchio.. there are guys like Kwan/OGon and Yu Chang/Clement/Miller that are used as place holders until these guys (OGon & Rocchio) are ready for an opportunity.

Obviously, some guys can breakout before the CleFO believes they're ready.. but, the CleFO doesn't see that or permit that very often...

Good posting..

 

[Criznit]

While there may be data supporting the following.. it's not know at this time...

Whenever Cleveland has a void/opening.. and they believe their meritorious prospect is NOT ready.. a prospect or NRI or vet pickup fills the slot until such time as the more meritorious prospect is ready for an opportunity. This permits the prospect the opportunity to hone their skills without the pressure of performance at the big league level & play everyday. Mind you.. there is performance pressure.. just not the highest.. In the context of Valera and Rocchio.. there are guys like Kwan/OGon and Yu Chang/Clement/Miller that are used as place holders until these guys (OGon & Rocchio) are ready for an opportunity.

Obviously, some guys can breakout before the CleFO believes they're ready.. but, the CleFO doesn't see that or permit that very often...

Good posting..

The last time I can recall throwing a "prospect" to the wolves for the "greater good" was Lou Marson while Carlos continued to get seasoning. It was a bold call and had Marson blossomed, it would have been a good problem to have.

I guess Andres G was kinda similar in 2021 - but we pulled him back.

 

[sportscoach]

I think we got the conversation confused.

Harold isn't gonna make the 40 man.

The question I raised was would you rather protect Noel or Gonzalez.

Without thinking twice, I'd choose Noel.

I said I would keep OGonz over HRam, but if I knew Noel would be taken in the Rule 5, he would be kept over HRam and OGonz

 

[Gson]

The last time I can recall throwing a "prospect" to the wolves for the "greater good" was Lou Marson while Carlos continued to get seasoning. It was a bold call and had Marson blossomed, it would have been a good problem to have.

I guess Andres G was kinda similar in 2021 - but we pulled him back.

The example I use for this was Juan Gone's replacement at the outset of the season.. so many years ago..