2021 Season | Series #42 | Indians @ Red Sox | Sep. 3-5

[CDAV45]

Nice to win the last Indians game in Fenway. It looked like they were going to blow it until the 9th.

Plesac staggered through five innings, allowing 8 hits and 3 walks. The first four innings he looked like a tightrope walker in a hurricane as he escaped jam after jam. They finally got to him for three runs in the 5th and it could have been more but he stepped up and struck out Renfroe and Devers with runners on second and third. A tremendouly gutsy performance that may have saved the game.

Plesac was lucky that drive by Shaw wasn't 12 inches higher or it would have been a three-run homer.

The Indians bullpen give up two more runs in four innings today (thanks to Wittgren), so the final total for the six Red Sox games is 17 earned runs in 21 innings. This was a very useful and instructive series. The front office should have no doubts about the need to augment the bullpen this off-season, even assuming Sandlin and Karinchak return and pitch well next year.

Nice to see Stephan bounce back and pitch a scoreless inning.

It's amazing how Franmil can go from something like 1-for-23 with 13 K's to 5-for-5 literally overnight. It's like flipping a switch.

The Sox did us a favor by resting Devers and we also got lucky when their starter came down with COVID and they had to rush a kid up from AAA to make his first career appearance. We still almost let this one get away. We got six runs off their two minor league pitchers so this win was kind of a gift.

All six games were decided in the 7th, 8th, 9th, or 10th innings. It really was a close, competitive series. Every game came down to who had the better bullpen. Today it was the Red Sox guy who imploded.

Schwarber is amazing; he almost never chases a bad pitch, even the ones 2 inches off the plate. His OBP since coming to the Sox was .464 coming into the game. The Indians got him today, though, as he went 0-for-4 with a walk.

Owen Miller hit a double off the center field wall. You don't see a second baseman do that every day. He and Chang are very similar in that they are infielders with unusual power but they don't make solid contact enough to be worth playing.

The Red Sox have used 50 players this year including 32 pitchers thanks to the usual injuries plus COVID. They're now in second place in the wild card race. Verdugo is hitting .363 his last 25 games; Plawecki .344 since the All-Star break. Schwarber is .338 since being traded. These guys are stepping up.

I appreciate your detailed posts Wham. You do a great job with these game threads.

A couple of things I'd like to mention:
1) Outside of a good LHRP, do we need BP help for next year?
2) Has the SP injuries put unusual wear and tear on the BP.
3) Wittgren has been a pretty damn good RP for us until his recent struggles. Is he on the downside or a victim from #2?
4) Do you bring Shaw back?
5) Does Stephan go to Columbus next season to get stretched out?
6) Do you really think that Miller has "unusual power", and why would you not think he'll migrate toward his career norms. I recall the conversations from earlier in the year/season comparing Miller and Freeman. I thought both were similar hitters with Freeman having a slightly better bat to ball skill and Miller having a bit more power. I'm anxious to see Miller with a fresh start.
7) Just imagine if Chang could ever hit .275 and get on base at a .330 clip. He'd probably have 25 HR with a full season's worth of AB. Thing is, he might actually be able to do that, but I doubt it will be with Cleveland. I don't view Miller and Chang as similar hitters at all, but that's just my opinion.
8) We played the Red Sox tough this season, and they're a competitive team so I think that speaks volumes about Cleveland's ability to compete.
9) Getting production from the bottom part of the lineup dramatically increases this team's chances of winning regular season ballgames. The difference is astounding.

 

[CDAV45]

Thanks for asking but I'm not qualified to answer that. I have no idea how the organization views him with respect to all the other starting pitching candidates.

On the one hand, he's 5'10". How many successful starting pitchers under 6 feet tall do you see? His fastball lives at 91-92. So right there he seems to be at a disadvantage. Plus, he's already 25 years old. I think he's pretty much what he's going to be - a five-inning, three-run BOR guy.

With the group we already have on the 25 and prospects like Morris, Espino, both Logan Allens, Hankins, and others in the pipeline it's hard for me to see Morgan as a future member of the rotation. I'd say he's in the wrong organization.

Looking at some of the starters we've been seeing opponents throw out there lately, not to mention teams having to do bullpen days, it seems like there would be a lot of teams where Eli would be an upgrade over what they have now at the 4 and 5 spots. I could definitely see him included in a package for an outfield bat, especially if he finishes this season strong. Most teams need more starting pitching. If you look at the injury lists it seems like every team has at least 5-6 pitchers out. A guy like Morgan who is making no money but can give you 5-6 innings every time out plus a decent chance to win has value, especially to a small market team that is low on money and starting pitching depth.

Pretty much my exact sentiments.

 

[CDAV45]

I feel like most of the bullpen can be strengthened internally, but getting a setup/closer from the left side with lots of experience would be a priority for me. Hence why I see Chafin as a target, we also will try to get Shaw, Andrew Miller, Parker etc back into minor league camp with us. We aren't only going to allow the young guys to pitch, but bring in some savvy veterans to compete with them..

Agree Coach. We could use a good LHRP, and one that could pitch late in the game would be nice. Too bad Gose didn't put it all together this season because he could be special with that arm. Chafin would be an excellent get, but there are probably a couple of others that could help as well. Do you think they could flip someone like Morgan for a good LHRP?

I know you like veteran leadership, and believe it or not I do as well. I think Parker pitched well enough to warrant another shot with this ball club. Any wisdom he can pass on would be icing on the cake for me.

I like Shaw and the fact that he'll pitch until his arm flies off. I can't help but wonder if the SP injuries didn't wear guys like Shaw, Wittgren, and others down a bit over the course this season.

 

[CDAV45]

What do we actually have for options though? I feel like no matter who we put in other than Clase, someone is going to complain.

Yeah we tend to quickly forget how good someone like Wittgren has been for this team over the last couple of seasons.

 

[CDAV45]

The options are Young, Shaw, Parker, Garza, Hentges, and Mejia.

Parker, Shaw, and Parker pitched yesterday, and we saw how that went.

Hey CATS, what's your opinion on Garza. I don't know what it is, or why, but the kid intrigues me. I think he could actually be a decent SP. Am I delusional?

 

[DCTribefan]

Yeah we tend to quickly forget how good someone like Wittgren has been for this team over the last couple of seasons.

Do you want to pay Wittgren for past performance or current production? Same applies to Shaw. I don’t care why their performance has declined; it inarguably has fallen off. Guardians’ payroll constraints will not allow a return of either.

 

[MadThinker88]

I cant see any of Parker/ Wittgren/ Shaw still on the roster with the 40 man deadline in Mid-November.
However I think it is very likely 1 (maybe 2) gets a minor league deal with invite to spring training & inside track to making the club coming out of the camp..

 

[xmasbuck]

I cant see any of Parker/ Wittgren/ Shaw still on the roster with the 40 man deadline in Mid-November.
However I think it is very likely 1 (maybe 2) gets a minor league deal with invite to spring training & inside track to making the club coming out of the camp..

gotta believe parker and wittgren would do better than minor league deals

 

[CDAV45]

Do you want to pay Wittgren for past performance or current production? Same applies to Shaw. I don’t care why their performance has declined; it inarguably has fallen off. Guardians’ payroll constraints will not allow a return of either.

What payroll constraints? They resolved those last offseason and they're likely to significantly increase payroll.

You should care why the performance has declined because it most likely would happen to even the best relievers in the game under the same circumstances.

I'd like to pay them for their past performances if they're going to pitch like that again, which has pretty much been their career norms. The grass isn't always greener DC and Wittgren has been solid as hell for this organization. I'm not saying he's an 8th or 9th inning guy, I've never viewed him in such a light, but he can take the ball consistently and up until recently performed very respectfully. He's averaging right close to 10 SO/9 IP and slightly over 2 BB/9 IP. He's going to easily surpass his IP/season so maybe he has been negatively affected by overuse.

Shaw has been solid as well this season so I guess I'm not getting your whole mantra for shitcanning them. It makes no sense to me whatsoever.

 

[DCTribefan]

Guardians payroll could be increased by 25% and still be at around just $50 million. Do you really think it will be increased by more than 25%?

 

[Wham with the Right Hand]

I appreciate your detailed posts Wham. You do a great job with these game threads.

A couple of things I'd like to mention:
1) Outside of a good LHRP, do we need BP help for next year?
2) Has the SP injuries put unusual wear and tear on the BP.
3) Wittgren has been a pretty damn good RP for us until his recent struggles. Is he on the downside or a victim from #2?
4) Do you bring Shaw back?
5) Does Stephan go to Columbus next season to get stretched out?
6) Do you really think that Miller has "unusual power", and why would you not think he'll migrate toward his career norms. I recall the conversations from earlier in the year/season comparing Miller and Freeman. I thought both were similar hitters with Freeman having a slightly better bat to ball skill and Miller having a bit more power. I'm anxious to see Miller with a fresh start.
7) Just imagine if Chang could ever hit .275 and get on base at a .330 clip. He'd probably have 25 HR with a full season's worth of AB. Thing is, he might actually be able to do that, but I doubt it will be with Cleveland. I don't view Miller and Chang as similar hitters at all, but that's just my opinion.
8) We played the Red Sox tough this season, and they're a competitive team so I think that speaks volumes about Cleveland's ability to compete.
9) Getting production from the bottom part of the lineup dramatically increases this team's chances of winning regular season ballgames. The difference is astounding.

Wittgren has lost seven games this season and has a 4.47 ERA. He has been well below average, IMO.

On April 3 he gave up 3 runs in 2/3 of an inning in a 5-2 loss.

On April 22 he gave up 2 runs in 2/3 of an inning in a 6-3 loss.

On June 25 he gave up 2 runs in 1 inning in an 8-7 loss.

On July 5 he gave up one run in 2/3 innings in a 9-8 loss.

On July 23 he gave up 5 runs in 1/3 innings in a 10-5 loss.

On Aug 1 he gave up 1 run in 1.1 innings in a 2-1 loss.

On Aug. 28 he gave up 2 runs in 1/3 innings in a 5-3 loss.

On Sep. 4 he gave up 1 run in 1 inning in a 4-3 loss.

Today he gave up 2 runs in 1 inning but the Indians won despite that.

Wittgren has not had a good year and I do not expect that he'll be back. His usage rate has been pretty constant; 7 appearances in April, 11 in May, 10 in June, 8 in July (All-Star break), and 12 in August. I don't think the injuries to starters have increased his usage and diminished his effectiveness. I don't see his usage rate increase much if any and he was blowing games in April, June, and July. He's given up 11 home runs.

Shaw has seven losses and five blown saves. His WHIP is 1.40, so he has not been doing a great job of keeping runners off the bases. At 33 I'm not high on him, either.

As for question #1, we might be able to get by just adding a good lefty reliever if they can get Karinchak back to where he was (or close to it). That would give us a pen of Clase, Karinchak, Sandlin, the lefty we acquire, Stephan, Mejia, and Hentges. Those last two are out of options so I assume they'll be in the pen. I would still try for one more. Maybe Parker, although he's pretty long in the tooth.

 

[33Y0]

I appreciate your detailed posts Wham. You do a great job with these game threads.

A couple of things I'd like to mention:
1) Outside of a good LHRP, do we need BP help for next year?
2) Has the SP injuries put unusual wear and tear on the BP.
3) Wittgren has been a pretty damn good RP for us until his recent struggles. Is he on the downside or a victim from #2?
4) Do you bring Shaw back?
5) Does Stephan go to Columbus next season to get stretched out?
6) Do you really think that Miller has "unusual power", and why would you not think he'll migrate toward his career norms. I recall the conversations from earlier in the year/season comparing Miller and Freeman. I thought both were similar hitters with Freeman having a slightly better bat to ball skill and Miller having a bit more power. I'm anxious to see Miller with a fresh start.
7) Just imagine if Chang could ever hit .275 and get on base at a .330 clip. He'd probably have 25 HR with a full season's worth of AB. Thing is, he might actually be able to do that, but I doubt it will be with Cleveland. I don't view Miller and Chang as similar hitters at all, but that's just my opinion.
8) We played the Red Sox tough this season, and they're a competitive team so I think that speaks volumes about Cleveland's ability to compete.
9) Getting production from the bottom part of the lineup dramatically increases this team's chances of winning regular season ballgames. The difference is astounding.

1) Yes
2) Yes but lately hasn't been as much of an issue; so I wouldn't use it as an excuse.
3) Downside
4) No
5) I'd leave him in the 'pen

 

[KluberSociety]

We can complain about Wittgren, Stephan, et al, but just letting them all go or to AAA isn't a solution to a problem when we don't have clear replacement options. As it stands now we're pretty much putting forth the best we've got which just isn't very good. Actual good relievers aren't cheap either. I'd rather just look at the situation as us having a lot of pitchers who can start and some of them can move to the pen but we'll still need other arms and yes there is a value to having a few Wittgren level guys who optimally aren't being put into high leverage situations but at least give us an option.

 

[CATS44]

A lefty reliever with Chafins track record will be looking for a three year deal. He probably will settle for two years with an option that will guarantee more money than we are gonna pay.

***********

Many middle relievers and non elite set up men are up and down. Results change year to year, month to month, and even week to week. Shaw was washed up and nobody wanted Parker. There are no guarantees.

We like to think that we can fill a pen with seven Andrew Millers, but it doesn't work that way. Guys like Wittgren last a long time, because they are effective bridges from starter to backend. That doesn't mean they can operate in the backend.

********

I don't think much of Garza. He's another fringe reliever with little upside. Put him in a barrel with Perez, Nelson, Cam Hill...shake it up, and whomever comes out gets a job.

Seriously, I think he is a candidate for the last pitching spot on the 40 man. If we need to overload to fit in all the position prospects, I dont see him sticking.

*********

I think a lot of fans are overlooking Hentges. For one inning, he could be devastating. He only needs to concentrate on one pitch to go with 99 MPH heat.

To a lesser extent, the same with Mejia.

Neither should be penalized for being pushed into situations for which they were unprepared. Had we not lost our rotation, we might be drooling over what they were doing to AAA batters.

 

[CATS44]

Our payroll for this year was about $50 mil.

A 25% increase would be $62.5. I expect somewhat more.