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2023-2024 Cleveland Guardians Offseason Thread

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Um, because you literally asked about the past 2 seasons?

The splits tell you all you need to know and it's not so small sample. Barlow has pretty balanced splits, whereas EDLS has significant gap. It also helps explain why Barlow has been a steady late innings arm, whereas Enyel has struggled when getting matched up close and late.

He was a great pickup and he maximized his abilities here. Both sides should be happy, and we fans too. It was a good chip to trade for even more stability atop the BP depth chart and as a bridge arm to the future setup guys that will emerge (Hentges? Smith? Aleman? Herrin? Maybe even one of Stephan/Karinchak comes back).

Depaite their disappointing 2023 season, I'm satisfied with our BP depth. Sandlin and Morgan are quality mop up/bridge arms. Ample depth on the 40 now with Curry, Morris, Herrin and Smith with about half a dozen guys waiting right behind. Both quantity and quality is pretty good. And that's before maybe moving pedigree arms like Espino or Hankins to the pen
I think it was the best time to deal DLS as well as his value is likely peaked, he has years of control and is fairly inexpensive. I'm just not satisfied with the return or better yet what was returned. You and I agree on the BP depth and the quality of it so I'd rather see a SP or and OFer. Do you think this is a precursor to another BP being dealt?

I don't want this conversation to go the same way the Quantrill discussions did. I want to make myself clear. I'm not upset that either one of Quantrill or DLS have been dealt. In fact, I think dealing them is generally a good idea. My angst comes from the returns. I'm also concerned that dealing Bieber is off the table due to the lack of SP depth. Then again, if all they can get for 2 yrs of Quantrill is a low A, mediocre C then 1 yr of Bieber isn't going to return much more because all his peripherals are going in the wrong direction too. Especially when you factor in Bieber's expected salary.

Does not getting much in return for these guys suggest they could give Straw away if a team wants him?

On a more positive note, I like the Bethencourt pickup.
 
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Just looking at bref numbers from 2023 alone, Barlow and Karinchak both had a higher percentage of plate appearances in high leverage situations than De Los Santos (40+% vs 25%) and both had better success in those situations as well based on K% and OPS against.
 
I can’t believe we have people here going this in depth over DLS. People will complain over anything I guess….
I'm trying to steer the conversation away from going in depth over DLS. I want it to go more toward a roster construction direction. My point was that I'm not confident Barlow is worth the investment, not that DLS is irreplaceable or shouldn't have been dealt.
 
The pen changes are inevitable.. primarily due to the volatility of the arms that live there... The newly acquired & replacement guys will be marginally different from the guys they're replacing.. The only aspect of the pen that is in question is the promotion from within of guys whose roles are undefined at the moment.. This excludes Karinchak, Sandlin, Xzavion.. Eli and Barlow, now.. The question in the bullpen, after Clase, Stephan & Hentges' roles are defined.. who steps up?..

-Herrin?
-Smith?
-Morris?
-Gaddis?

...and we just don't know.. Defining the make up of the pen based on past performances.. is, at best a good guess.. probably why they play the games..

..but I sure would have been happier if instead of losing EDLS for Barlow.. we would have kept both EDLS and Lopez.. btw.. there is no reason Lopez cannot be retained, still, however, unlikely that is..
I was going to say something smart like; There are millions of reasons Lopez cannot be retained.
However, If they were able to keep Lopez, while adding Barlow to Hentges, Stephan and Clase, that would be a helluva bullpen.
It might be an interesting strategy to build a BP that is nails if your SP are not that deep. (Or injury prone.) It also might be cheaper than adding a veteran SP.
 
I was going to say something smart like; There are millions of reasons Lopez cannot be retained.
However, If they were able to keep Lopez, while adding Barlow to Hentges, Stephan and Clase, that would be a helluva bullpen.
It might be an interesting strategy to build a BP that is nails if your SP are not that deep. (Or injury prone.) It also might be cheaper than adding a veteran SP.
Interesting idea. I doubt that’s what they are thinking - but I will say that from a roster spending standpoint, they may never again have this situation, with 3/5 of the starting rotation getting second-year salaries and McKenzie still reasonably cost-contained. So a reasonably cheap rotation may allow them to put some more money into the pen.
 
I was going to say something smart like; There are millions of reasons Lopez cannot be retained.
However, If they were able to keep Lopez, while adding Barlow to Hentges, Stephan and Clase, that would be a helluva bullpen.
It might be an interesting strategy to build a BP that is nails if your SP are not that deep. (Or injury prone.) It also might be cheaper than adding a veteran SP.
Or dealing Quantrill($6.6M) and DLS($1.2M) would possibly net you enough savings to come close to paying Lopez. Who of us wouldn't have been elated with that type of reasoning? I will say that with the BP talent bubbling up they may have seen the investment needed to retain Lopez unnecessary, but that could be applied to Barlow too. I guess with him the investment is only for a year at most.

Balancing the BP use has to be exhausting for managers. Especially when your SP can get you through 5 innings. Cleveland has been very fortunate in that a good amount of their SP has been able to log innings when they were healthy. They did that without extraordinary SO9 numbers too. Now we have guys like Bibee, Williams and Allen to carry that torch. Although, Bibee and Williams give you a good amount of punch outs too.
 
Interesting idea. I doubt that’s what they are thinking - but I will say that from a roster spending standpoint, they may never again have this situation, with 3/5 of the starting rotation getting second-year salaries and McKenzie still reasonably cost-contained. So a reasonably cheap rotation may allow them to put some more money into the pen.
..agree with this.. the fifth starter, who, as of this writing, is who we know it will be.. cannot tilt the wage scale all that much, as it's already "sunk" money.. anyway. As it stands now.. Shane Bieber is our fifth starter. He'll be on a one year deal... So, spending on a stalwart laden bullpen of arms.. would appear to be the way to go..

I've also looked at the available reinforcements in the area of OF'er that hit with some power as RHH's.. There are many trades. That is, there are an unlimited number of choices. Too many to list/consider.. but, it's nice to suggest one..

The FA market has at least two guys I'd be interested in bringing in.. Lewis and Senzel.. They'd be the RHH OF'er this team has virtually none of.. On one year deals with club options for seconds.. the dollar$ would be low & the rewards could be lower.. or amazing.. It would cost not much.. a marginal guy on a 40 man roster spot.. big f'in whoop.. Both of these guys have very high ceilings.. and incredibly low floors.. This is time when a risk needs to be considered.. One year from now.. and two farm hands one a RHH'ing the other a LHH slugger are going to be claiming spots in this lineup long term.. So, it's now or not ever..

Thoughts?
 
Yeah they plucked him off the scrap heap and turned him into a good middle reliever IMO. Why do you keep cherry picking stats? Even worse vs LHB now?

Barlow is a breaking ball specialist and I think the AL figured him out prior to being jettisoned to the NL West where he was less familiar and experienced newfound success because of it. I am no Scott Barlow fan for $7.1M and I don't think he's any better than DLS who was solid, but unspectacular. I can't for the life of me figure out why they would invest so much into such a mediocre reliever when they have all of Smith, Morris, Herrin and quite possibly Espino to sort through. There are others that could factor in as well, but that short list is enough IMO.
I wouldn't have Bartow pitch against Jonah Heim. Heim went 2-2 with two 3 run homers in a weekend series in April against Texas. Those were 2 of 4 HRs Bartow gave up in 69 IP.

The walks are a concern, but he was a little unlucky with his FIP 3.42 almost a run under his 4.37 ERA which was opposite of his favorable 2022 numbers.
 
MLB Trade Rumors Chat.. sort of a consensus resulting from discussions:

Darren 8:21 Bieber’s going nowhere now they’ve moved Quantrill. Guards don’t have a lot of SP depth.

Mark P 8:22 Not if Bieber is dealt for pitching. If you're the Dodgers, for instance, and need some experienced SP help right away, you can move one of the Sheehan/Grove/Stone crew as part of a Bieber deal.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

One noteworthy question and answer that I found interesting.. interesting indeed..

Squints 8:39 Where does Woodruff end up?

Mark P 8:40 I wouldn't entirely rule out a return to Milwaukee if the money is right. Quite a few teams make sense for Woodruff, ranging from contenders to teams that aren't set to compete in 2024 but perhaps by 2025
 
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Think Barlow takes the 7th inning role.
 
Yeah they plucked him off the scrap heap and turned him into a good middle reliever IMO. Why do you keep cherry picking stats? Even worse vs LHB now?

Barlow is a breaking ball specialist and I think the AL figured him out prior to being jettisoned to the NL West where he was less familiar and experienced newfound success because of it. I am no Scott Barlow fan for $7.1M and I don't think he's any better than DLS who was solid, but unspectacular. I can't for the life of me figure out why they would invest so much into such a mediocre reliever when they have all of Smith, Morris, Herrin and quite possibly Espino to sort through. There are others that could factor in as well, but that short list is enough IMO.

Last 3 full seasons and ranks of the 203 RP with 100+ IP
216-2/3 IP (3rd)
2.95 ERA (41st)
3.22 FIP (42nd)
10.26 K/9 (61st)
0.71 HR/9 (40th)
3.49 BB/9 (104th)
4.1 fWAR (12th)
53 Saves, 27 Holds

But sure, mediocre. His relief numbers are pretty damn similar to Reynaldo Lopez's relief numbers and this forum was all about re-signing him. I'm sure people will warm up to this trade when Lopez signs a multi-year deal at the same aav as Barlow's 2023 salary
 
MLB Trade Rumors Chat.. sort of a consensus resulting from discussions:

Darren 8:21 Bieber’s going nowhere now they’ve moved Quantrill. Guards don’t have a lot of SP depth.

Mark P 8:22 Not if Bieber is dealt for pitching. If you're the Dodgers, for instance, and need some experienced SP help right away, you can move one of the Sheehan/Grove/Stone crew as part of a Bieber deal.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

One noteworthy question and answer that I found interesting.. interesting indeed..

Squints 8:39 Where does Woodruff end up?

Mark P 8:40 I wouldn't entirely rule out a return to Milwaukee if the money is right. Quite a few teams make sense for Woodruff, ranging from contenders to teams that aren't set to compete in 2024 but perhaps by 2025
Trading Shane for a promising SP prospect who can start the year in AAA would be ideal when you consider years of control plus it would save Cleveland another 15M in payroll that could be spent elsewhere.
 
Trading Shane for a promising SP prospect who can start the year in AAA would be ideal when you consider years of control plus it would save Cleveland another 15M in payroll that could be spent elsewhere.

I really think the return for Bieber, that the FO wants, is a MLB bat with pop, that can play RF and a midtier+ SP prospect... If that MLB bat doesn't have team control then another prospect has to be added... I just don't see any team willing to give up that much for him...
 

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