2023 Cleveland Guardians Season Thread

[BMAN]

Andy Marte played 3rd, Asdrubal played SS.

 

[macbdog]

Jason Stark is officially an asshat. How does he leave off Jose there? The fool knows who he is. Is he going to forget who Trout and Otani are after they get to Cleveland too?

 

[Out of the Rafters at the Q]

Andy Marte played 3rd, Asdrubal played SS.

Jhonny played third towards the end, which was where @CATS44 came from with the Marte comments. So yeah, @CATS44 Is right there.

He's wrong on a lot of other things though.

• Jhonny isn't the most reviled athlete in recent memory. He probably isn't even top 10. Swisher is likely #1 on the list
• It's spelled Jhonny

Nevermind the "leap to conclusions" mat he tries to use by talking about Detroit's team success.

 

[CalBuckeyeRob]

They waited until June on Lindor to delay the service time not because he wasn't ready out of spring training. The same thing they are doing now with Naylor. For a low budget team it may make sense but it has little to do with readiness.

 

[southernflyer]

And one more anecdote:

The most reviled athlete to play for Cleveland, until Amed, was Johnny Peralta. He was also nearing free agency. He was finally traded on July 28th, 2010, because we had a sure fire elite former prospect that only needed to play regularly to be an immediate upgrade to Peralta...Andy Marte. Marte played six games in MLB after that season.

Peralta was 28 when he was traded. He went on to resign with Detroit for three years, then three with St Louis, before washing out at age 36. In those six years, he put up 17.6 fWAR. Fans didn't think he was good enough to play for Cleveland, esp at SS, but he was the starting SS for a....

Division champ in 2011.
AL pennant winner in 2012.
Division champ in 2013.
Division champ in 2014.
Division series winner in 2015.

Peralta was a victim to his '05 season being an outlier and the team signed him to an early contract, an average SS defensively with limited range (after years of Omar dazzling fans) with a string of average OPS years trending downward and Casey Blake at 3B, where Asdrubal would have been a better fit at. Peralta is a good example of this org not overpaying for average (and most of us lament better than average) players and will use cheaper options.

Peralta was an average positional placeholder for a Detroit team that had guys like Miguel Cabrera, Prince Fielder, Austin Jackson and Victor Martinez around him in the lineup with Verlander, Scherzer, Fister, Smyly and Porcello starting throughout the years.

He had a couple of good years in StL, who signed him to a 4 year, $53m contract and was so bad they released him 20 games into the fourth year when StL found their Casey Blake in Jedd Gyorko.

There are a lot of guys who hang around the league for a decade being around average. Peralta was traded to a perfect situation for him in Detroit and had a choice in StL which had a solid team. You could have used Asdrubal Cabrera for the same reference being an average player (including a career with eight teams), but I wouldn't say Asdrubal was the reason the Nationals won the World Series in '19.

The problem with Amed is he's never really been above average. Peralta and Asdrubal had those 120+ or 130+ OPS seasons that showed greater potential. I can't see anyone making a logical argument for that for Amed at this point. This isn't arguing Andy Marte will replace Casey Blake's 110+OPS average season. We have a small busload of roundly regarded MI prospects who are better defensively and can match the baseline 80+OPS and have potential to be much better than Amed's best years of being average.

 

[CDAV45]

I'm glad that we shouldn't call players up unless they're Hall of Famers.

I'm also glad to have learned that because one prospect (Marte) flamed out, we shouldn't give every subsequent prospect a chance... except Lindor, because, umm, you know... reasons... like how he fits @CATS44 's narrative...

Amed holds absolutely zero value to this organization after 2023.

Amed's ENTIRE value was "Well, he's better today than the youth behind him... so you'll win more games by starting him than if you turn things over to the kids right away"

As the resident Amed hater, I even AGREED with that statement. I accepted that Amed was better on opening day than Arias/Rocchio/Freeman would be, and still wanted him gone because that tiny additional value in the short term was worth less than the negative impact he would have long term.

Yet, I was wrong. We all were wrong. That value proposition has been proven false. Amed has been atrocious and we would've won more games if we jettisoned him into the sun before the season began.

Nevermind the fact that every day we play Amed, we hurt our chances in 2024 and beyond. We should be giving the AB's (and defensive reps at SS) to the guys that can help us win--both today and down the line.

I particularly like how he refers to players like Peralta yet will complain about the first prospect that doesn't look like a gold glover. It's also funny how he never mentions Rosario's terrible defense. He is an adamant Straw supporter because of his defense and rips on the idea of Arias at SS over Amed. Dude talks in more circles than anyone I've ever seen post here.

I've wanted Amed gone for awhile now. As far back as last season because I knew he would be in the way and that he just wasn't that good. Now, instead of trading a 4 WAR player before this season started(smoke and mirrors IMO) we're stuck with a 0 value player blocking better, younger and cheaper players that will be with this team when it's actually competitive. Frustrating as hell!

 

[KluberSociety]

The coach V video from the spring training might be instructive. I thought it was posted in this forum but I don’t recall where I viewed it and can’t find it. Nonetheless, the instruction—message—may have been misinterpreted. It currently appears that way.

What was the message?

 

[BMAN]

Jhonny played third towards the end, which was where @CATS44 came from with the Marte comments. So yeah, @CATS44 Is right there.

He's wrong on a lot of other things though.

• Jhonny isn't the most reviled athlete in recent memory. He probably isn't even top 10. Swisher is likely #1 on the list
• It's spelled Jhonny

Nevermind the "leap to conclusions" mat he tries to use by talking about Detroit's team success.

Completely forgot we moved him there so his “power” would play there.

 

[sportscoach]

I am going to state something weird, but can Arias play catcher? Lol

 

[Criznit]

I am going to state something weird, but can Arias play catcher? Lol

While ponder posting in the past, I have suggested that Arias should have the toolbox to be an elite defensive catcher.

In fact if there came a point where all the regular options for C can't play, I'd bet Arias would be the one strapping on the chest protector.

 

[CalBuckeyeRob]

I am going to state something weird, but can Arias play catcher? Lol

Sadly, some are asking that same question about Zunino.

 

[sportscoach]

Sadly, some are asking that same question about Zunino.

So we may as well put Arias back there then since it wouldn't be any worse lol

 

[DCTribefan]

If you see a Cal Ripken, jr among our prospects, let me know.

At age 19 in AA, his OPS was .859. The next year in AAA, it was .919. Combined in those two years, he hit 48 HR, 9 Triples, and 59 Doubles, while striking out 10.5% of the time.

Sakata was no Amed, either. He was a util MIF that accumulated 3.3 fWAR in eleven seasons.

But the most important thing to notice is that Weaver waited until JULY 1st to make the move. So if you want to know what Weaver would do...based upon your example, he would do the exact same thing as Tito is doing....IF he thought that one of our prospects was the next Ripken, and IF he thought that Amed was merely a Sakata with no track record.

A few other anecdotes:

In 2015 Frankie Lindor was called up to replace a struggling Jose Ramirez on June 14th.

If you see a Frankie Lindor among our SS prospects let me know.

In 2007 the Tribe had Josh Barfield playing 2B, and he was a flop. He was certainly not an Amed Rosario. Down below, a youngster by the name of Asdrubal Cabrera was hitting everything in sight to a tune of an .828 OPS with a K rate of 10.7%.

The Tribe was in a neck and neck pennant race with Detroit. After not pulling off a trade at the deadline, they brought up Droobs on Aug 8th.

We might have a Droobs playing in Columbus.

*****

If you like these anecdotes, notice a few things.

1) The moves were not made in May.
2) The moves did not include replacing a player with Ameds track record of production and leadership.
3) The Cleveland moves involved calling up switch hitting MIFs who were productive, without striking out.

And one more anecdote:

The most reviled athlete to play for Cleveland, until Amed, was Johnny Peralta. He was also nearing free agency. He was finally traded on July 28th, 2010, because we had a sure fire elite former prospect that only needed to play regularly to be an immediate upgrade to Peralta...Andy Marte. Marte played six games in MLB after that season.

Peralta was 28 when he was traded. He went on to resign with Detroit for three years, then three with St Louis, before washing out at age 36. In those six years, he put up 17.6 fWAR. Fans didn't think he was good enough to play for Cleveland, esp at SS, but he was the starting SS for a....

Division champ in 2011.
AL pennant winner in 2012.
Division champ in 2013.
Division champ in 2014.
Division series winner in 2015.

“2) The moves did not include replacing a player with Ameds track record of production and leadership.”

What exactly is Ahmed’s track record of leadership? Please explain.

 

[KluberSociety]

IMO, it's actually Gimenez that should be our SS of the future, although Arias is looking like an option too. Good luck convincing me though that we'd better off with Rocchio or Freeman at SS and Gimenez at 2B than vice versa.

Thankfully due to Amed he's been playing 2B and probably getting rusty at SS/3B. As a result even if Amed goes, we're probably better off keeping Gimenez at 2B for the rest of the year (even if it means putting Rocchio or Freeman at SS) and making the transition in the offseason. Another reason why Amed playing SS has just not been good for us.

 

[southernflyer]

“2) The moves did not include replacing a player with Ameds track record of production and leadership.”

What exactly is Ahmed’s track record of leadership? Please explain.

Tito and Jose like him. He's Gilligan to the Skipper.