2023 Guardians Spring Training Thread

[KluberSociety]

Can I say both?

If I'm allowed to say neither

 

[rcristal]

The shortstop that you love to bash is far more than average offensively. Led the league in triples and infield hits last season while hitting close to 290. Defensively last season he was very steady and is most definitely not below average. 11 errors for a ss is pretty damn good.

Next year Amed will command a contract with nine digits on the bottom line. Teams don't offer that kind of money unless he is pretty damn good. There is not one middle infield prospect that sniffed the high level of his performance last year in the organization. That is why he's here and most likely will be here for the whole season.

My only complaint with him is that he didn't steal nearly enough bases last year having a success rate of 90%. I could say the same thing about Giminez, Kwan, Straw and to a lesser degree, Jose. With the new rules, they should be running teams to death.

Finally, a voice of reason.
Rcristal

 

[Wham with the Right Hand]

I didn't realize switching leagues was that big a deal. I'm hoping that if Bell is consistently coming up with men on base and the next hitters are Naylor, Oscar, and Gimenez (in whatever order) that he will get a lot of good pitches to hit.

And if the pitchers are worried about Rosario and/or Jose stealing with the restricted pickoff throws, that takes more attention away from their pitching.

Today's Pluto column makes it sound like Bieber is poised for another Cy Young run. Nice timing if it happens.

This is a contract year for Amed. Hope he doesn't screw himself up at the plate by getting even more aggressive and by going for more home runs. Just stick with spraying line drives around, leading the league in infield hits and triples, and take extra bases.

Somebody mentioned that most of his errors were of the throwing variety. Hope he's aware of that and working on his footwork and a consistent arm slot, avoiding slinging the ball sidearmed or getting careless with his throws.

He should be hitting 7th as another poster pointed out. According to analytics the best hitter on the team should be batting second, like Trout does for the Angels.

Kwan
Hosey
Gimenez
Bell
Naylor
Oscar
Amed
Straw
Zunino

That's my batting order.

 

[petes999]

Finally, a voice of reason.
Rcristal

Next year Amed will command a contract with nine digits on the bottom line. Teams don't offer that kind of money unless he is pretty damn good. There is not one middle infield prospect that sniffed the high level of his performance last year in the organization. That is why he's here and most likely will be here for the whole season.

Please, if anyone would trade Rosario straight up for Edwin Diaz (before injury), Nimmo, Gausmann, Castellanos, Realmuto or Wheeler (the last few $100 million contracts over last few years) than that GM needs their heads examine. Now, it will be close as I expect Rosario to get up to 5 year - $15 million contract per year or a 2-year $20 million with club options (buying them) as a team is desperate to fill a hole. This is even in the best FA class, he could ever hope for, with no other real SS to best him by too much (assuming Anderson option is picked up). I will cover that $100 million 9-figure bet for anyone who wants to make it.

Yet, unless Rosario is playing LF or 2nd this year and/or batting 6th at some point this year for us to show flexibility and team first attitude... NO F'en WAY does a Yankee or Dodgers team who have money to burn bump a Judge or Freeman in the lineup for a player for some reason cannot handle changes - even batting 6th on our team that have 6 better projected hitters per FG (even after Oscar).

Yes, both these teams need shortstops but Rosario is an enigma ... good enough to command money but there may not be a right fit. Too many good shortstops coming up to put Rosario as your franchise #2 hitter/SS for anything more than 1-2 years, let alone 5 years. And, he has shown no one (even Tito) the flexibility to be a Story or other "good" SS to move to 2nd for the better fielder/player, as of YET, for any sane GM (other than Padres) to make that 5-year $100 million bet. Honestly, him going to Tito to bat 6th or 7th on our good team is his best bet to prepare for FA (give up that hit title by racking up the PAs) for team first flexibility.

Now, DJ LeMahieu got 6 year - $15 million pre-2021 for his 2019 and 2020 HR breakout and .300+ BA but he had position flexibility (and sure Yanks are regretting it to an extent). Costallanos had 30+ HR seasons before last year for his $100 mill. Schwarber got 4 year $80 million and he made the USA team. DR even picked Cano to warm the bench and Marte who would be the closest comp over Rosario (ignoring Adams and Franco and Pena as true SS). Marte just got 5-year $75 million + club option to kick in this year to play 2nd for Ariz/DR over Rosario (remember my note that Anderson showed flexibility in wanting to play 2nd so Turner could play SS that matters to GMs).

I have already wasted my time trying to convince people that the SS market may be thin next year but so are the options for teams having $100 million to give Rosario
Detroit - Baez
Angles - Neto
Boston - Mayer
Guardians - Rocchio and Gimenez
Dodgers - enough prospect depth to buy someone better than Rosario, plus Lux will be back next year
Braves - Shoemaker and Grissom
Giants - Luciano
Arizona - Lawlar
Reds - Cruz
Yankees - Volpe and others

Rosario is nothing more than a filler ... short-term plug ... that can be a huge contract drag at $20 million a year if he cannot at least move to 2nd base or down to 6th or 7th in order.

 

[KluberSociety]

@petes999 where do you get the idea that Amed's stubbornness is why he's locked in at SS hitting 2nd? It could easily be Tito putting him in the 2 hole and him simply not speaking up about it which isn't really his role anyway, unless I'm missing something.

 

[petes999]

@petes999 where do you get the idea that Amed's stubbornness is why he's locked in at SS hitting 2nd? It could easily be Tito putting him in the 2 hole and him simply not speaking up about it which isn't really his role anyway, unless I'm missing something.

If he is a leader as many claim, isn't it his role to speak up and say what is best for the team? I am confused, either his is a leader or not....all the WBC guys who are their team leaders spoke up to DeRosa and at least offered to take on other roles to help the team win like Andersen. Ramirez spoke up a few years ago (things get leaked all the time) and offered to play 2nd if it made the team better -- his only condition was decide and do it for the season versus back-and-forth which is reasonable.

Tito found a spot where Rosario seemed to thrive (at least to his potential) and has kept him there at SS and 2nd in order. But, analytically and by any other measures (all-star votes), isn't Gimenez the better hitter and SS after last year? Unless he foresees himself pulling a Straw and pressing too much, doesn't Gimenez at least deserve a shot (early in the season / pre-season) to show he can handle either the #2/#3 slot. His numbers may even improve even more having Ramirez hit behind him versus Zunino or Hedges - making team even better than we expect. We don't know until he tries.

And, please let's not insult each other and say Gimenez at SS and Rosario at 2nd is worse or even comparable to Rosario at SS and Gimenez at 2nd from needing a player to range and throw out runners in the hole. What am I missing other than Rosario feels comfortable where is and Tito knows it and will not force a change (fearing something may happen). Rosario has tried to learn more than LF -- Mets were thinking 3B. Obviously, 3B is not in his future here. But, how many SS have made a better transition to LF (let alone CF with Chisholm or Miller) or at least 2nd (this is what we expect from all our MIFs). Either way, my point on stubbornness or inability mentally/physically to change from his comfort zone is a really bad look in FA. Him at least speaking up and saying, put me at 2nd for a few ST innings and let's see what happens would have shown something, given Tito something to think about. But, it is just really strange that Tito is trying to fit a square peg in a round hole for just him. By all measures you can conceive, Gimenez should be our SS at least, if not our #2/#3 hitter with Ramirez. Even Tito talked to Naylor about going to OF (and it was leaked). Nothing has been leaked about Rosario after failure in LF after 2 tries. Something just doesn't seem right -- so I guess the reason, just like you all. But, sorry if Santana could learn to play LF .... I just don't buy SC reason that Rosario just couldn't physically do it (think mentally not willing to put the effort there). I can't play the OF but I also have 0 depth perception. My daughter played OF and when the manager made the switch, she had me hit balls to her for 1/2 hr every chance she could get - and was only better than the others who tried OF due to that drive. It is not like the infield where you need flexibility, agility, knowing how to square your hips before fielding to make that throw. All you need in OF is a drop step, an arm and plenty of experience to read the balls trajectory to learn angles. This is Chris's premise ... SS have ability and can learn any other positions but few can go the other way. What happened to Rosario????

Edit - and further, there are always the end of season meeting where there is an honest conversation on role on the team. Easy place to say, I see Gimenez as better SS than me ... should I work on 2nd throws if you are considering switching us? How hard is that? Why is it that Rosario even after Mets suggest 3B in off season and we tried LF, has he played only at SS except for 21 games in OF (20 with us) even with Gimenez and Rosario in 2020 w Mets - none at 3B nor 2nd. Ain't that he is better fielder than Gimenez.

 

[CATS44]

Goodness you don't mind lying do you. I haven't been insisting for "multiple years" that Amed wouldn't even be on the team. When I realized he wasn't much and that there was a lot more potential in Arias and Gimenez is exactly when I started to suggest he be moved. Nice try though.

I know who is playing CF for this team. That wasn't the point of saying what I did. What you did(like you always do) was talk out of both sides of your mouth and I noticed you totally avoided the question which is proof.

Arias was better with the bat and may still be. Gotta find out and nobody was kicking on Gimenez, but he didn't perform well prior to last season so you're still wrong.

Arias is the utility guy because nobody else can do it. Not because Amed is a godsend at SS. In actuality it was you that was suggesting that Arias was a subpar SS which goes against the entire view of everyone involved in professional baseball and the very organization you praise for valuing defense. You're wrong again as usual.

Your scorecard is wrong and everyone here knows you're full of shit except for RCRISTAL and statman. 3 peas in a pod.

I guess I'm gonna have to reprint some of your past posts again....lol.

You have been the lead advocate for trading Amed for a long time, including on your avatar last year.

Arias has never been a better hitter than Gimenez, when you look at underlying measurements. And if you go back thru two years of posts, I've been saying that Gimenez was gonna be a core player almost since we traded for him. (You can easily find last seasons prediction page to find just one illustration.)

But go ahead. Try to rewrite history....lol.

 

[CDAV45]

I guess I'm gonna have to reprint some of your past posts again....lol.

You have been the lead advocate for trading Amed for a long time, including on your avatar last year.

Arias has never been a better hitter than Gimenez, when you look at underlying measurements. And if you go back thru two years of posts, I've been saying that Gimenez was gonna be a core player almost since we traded for him. (You can easily find last seasons prediction page to find just one illustration.)

But go ahead. Try to rewrite history....lol.

Don’t be a coward and post them. I can’t wait because I’m sure you’re going to take them out of context and twist them to fit your narrative like you always do. Don’t worry, I’ll correct you as I always do. You have a reputation around here for that type of shit so it won’t come as a surprise.

 

[KluberSociety]

If he is a leader as many claim, isn't it his role to speak up and say what is best for the team? I am confused, either his is a leader or not....all the WBC guys who are their team leaders spoke up to DeRosa and at least offered to take on other roles to help the team win like Andersen. Ramirez spoke up a few years ago (things get leaked all the time) and offered to play 2nd if it made the team better -- his only condition was decide and do it for the season versus back-and-forth which is reasonable.

Tito found a spot where Rosario seemed to thrive (at least to his potential) and has kept him there at SS and 2nd in order. But, analytically and by any other measures (all-star votes), isn't Gimenez the better hitter and SS after last year? Unless he foresees himself pulling a Straw and pressing too much, doesn't Gimenez at least deserve a shot (early in the season / pre-season) to show he can handle either the #2/#3 slot. His numbers may even improve even more having Ramirez hit behind him versus Zunino or Hedges - making team even better than we expect. We don't know until he tries.

And, please let's not insult each other and say Gimenez at SS and Rosario at 2nd is worse or even comparable to Rosario at SS and Gimenez at 2nd from needing a player to range and throw out runners in the hole. What am I missing other than Rosario feels comfortable where is and Tito knows it and will not force a change (fearing something may happen). Rosario has tried to learn more than LF -- Mets were thinking 3B. Obviously, 3B is not in his future here. But, how many SS have made a better transition to LF (let alone CF with Chisholm or Miller) or at least 2nd (this is what we expect from all our MIFs). Either way, my point on stubbornness or inability mentally/physically to change from his comfort zone is a really bad look in FA. Him at least speaking up and saying, put me at 2nd for a few ST innings and let's see what happens would have shown something, given Tito something to think about. But, it is just really strange that Tito is trying to fit a square peg in a round hole for just him. By all measures you can conceive, Gimenez should be our SS at least, if not our #2/#3 hitter with Ramirez. Even Tito talked to Naylor about going to OF (and it was leaked). Nothing has been leaked about Rosario after failure in LF after 2 tries. Something just doesn't seem right -- so I guess the reason, just like you all. But, sorry if Santana could learn to play LF .... I just don't buy SC reason that Rosario just couldn't physically do it (think mentally not willing to put the effort there). I can't play the OF but I also have 0 depth perception. My daughter played OF and when the manager made the switch, she had me hit balls to her for 1/2 hr every chance she could get - and was only better than the others who tried OF due to that drive. It is not like the infield where you need flexibility, agility, knowing how to square your hips before fielding to make that throw. All you need in OF is a drop step, an arm and plenty of experience to read the balls trajectory to learn angles. This is Chris's premise ... SS have ability and can learn any other positions but few can go the other way. What happened to Rosario????

Edit - and further, there are always the end of season meeting where there is an honest conversation on role on the team. Easy place to say, I see Gimenez as better SS than me ... should I work on 2nd throws if you are considering switching us? How hard is that? Why is it that Rosario even after Mets suggest 3B in off season and we tried LF, has he played only at SS except for 21 games in OF (20 with us) even with Gimenez and Rosario in 2020 w Mets - none at 3B nor 2nd. Ain't that he is better fielder than Gimenez.

Personally I find batting order decisions to be within the realm of management mostly, and I do not expect the players to be the thought leaders in that department. If the management puts you in the 2 hole you do the best you can in that slot, and I have no strong reason to doubt that Amed is doing that Now I really don't know what happens behind the scenes but I just think it's unfair to pin personality traits on Amed like "stubbornness" when for all we know he could just be doing what he's asked.

As for who plays 2B and who plays SS, I'm not sure it matters much. 2B actually had a slightly higher Put Outs + Assists total in 2022 than did SS, so arguably Gimenez's extra edge at 2B was just as valuable as it would've been from SS. So I'm not sure that Value Added - Value Lost from swapping the two is even positive, considering that Amed was never going to be with the team for much longer. Gimenez on the other hand, working on that flexibility was key because he might be asked to play either position in the future. I think it matters a lot more WHO is on 2B/SS than who is playing which one specifically.

The main difference is probably in the arm which is where both Amed and Gimenez are roughly comparable, but perhaps Arias is better and Rocchio is worse (again just based on what others have said). In that case for the future then Arias would play SS and Rocchio would play 2B, and Gimenez would be able to play the other position.

 

[petes999]

Not to get into a pissing match .. but yes 2nd basemen have more putouts than SS .... statistics as Bimbo said have to be used with a grain of salt. The throw from 2nd is shorter and thus they have more time to make the play and thus play deeper (until this year) and thus get to more plays. But there is a reason Lindor, Turner and cast of other top players play SS and those with less abilities play 2nd on a NORMAL team. I guess Tito is just a genius as he and Chris found out that 100 years of SS/2nd base battles have been wrong and do not matter and actually you want your best fielder at 2nd (as long as arms are comparable).

SO fine Rosario is sitting on his hands ... I have no problem with it. My argument was what defines a leader that SC was making. Yet, I guess Turner, Ramirez and many others have been wrong (out of line and insubordinate) in the past to speak up and offer flexibility in position and batting order for the good of team as a manager has the one and only voice. I was ALSO making the point (to another point that Rosario is getting 9 figures) that without him showing flexibility in moving up or down the line up or moving to 2nd for a few games (due to being silent and not being a Turner or Ramirez on saying coach - play me where ever helps the team), he is possibly limiting his options in FA as his moves so far away from 2nd in order and SS position haven't gone to well (so far). It puts a hesitation in GM minds if they were willing to gamble on $100 million. They are wondering why Tito in face of all MoneyBall logic given to him by best FO geeks in the league, thinks Rosario (being one of the 9 best players -- YES), is better slotted in #2 hole and SS when there were clear better solutions on paper that would make the team better "on paper" if he and Gimenez switch. Yes, there is something there that Tito knows (on personalities) why the better fielder and better hitter after last year is not being switch in ST as 29 other managers would think is more logical. Anderson isn't batting 9th and playing 2nd over Andrus. Correra isn't batting 9th and playing 2nd over Gordon. There is a reason Witt is moving back to SS after breaking in his first year but not moving down to the 9 hole or playing 2nd again. Makes a GM go hmmmm why is that???? Is it worth a $100 million gamble that the issues is with Rosario or Gimenez who just played a really good SS for Venezuela.
.
EDIT - Sorry for sarcasm but my point of how many infielders have switched to OF and at least been decent (maybe except Kipnis to CF). And with all his abilities and team need, Rosario couldn't make the switch over 2 springs (to even be an average OF), sorry to me that says a lot (regardless if he speaks up or not). Stubbornness for me comes in many forms beyond his lack of need to speak up which you are focusing on to try to prove me wrong. Just giving an opinion, take it or leave it ....

 

[KluberSociety]

Not to get into a pissing match .. but yes 2nd basemen have more putouts than SS .... statistics as Bimbo said have to be used with a grain of salt. The throw from 2nd is shorter and thus they have more time to make the play and thus play deeper (until this year) and thus get to more plays. But there is a reason Lindor, Turner and cast of other top players play SS and those with less abilities play 2nd on a NORMAL team. I guess Tito is just a genius as he and Chris found out that 100 years of SS/2nd base battles have been wrong and do not matter and actually you want your best fielder at 2nd (as long as arms are comparable).

SO fine Rosario is sitting on his hands ... I have no problem with it. My argument was what defines a leader that SC was making. Yet, I guess Turner, Ramirez and many others have been wrong (out of line and insubordinate) in the past to speak up and offer flexibility in position and batting order for the good of team as a manager has the one and only voice. I was ALSO making the point (to another point that Rosario is getting 9 figures) that without him showing flexibility in moving up or down the line up or moving to 2nd for a few games (due to being silent and not being a Turner or Ramirez on saying coach - play me where ever helps the team), he is possibly limiting his options in FA as his moves so far away from 2nd in order and SS position haven't gone to well (so far). It puts a hesitation in GM minds if they were willing to gamble on $100 million. They are wondering why Tito in face of all MoneyBall logic given to him by best FO geeks in the league, thinks Rosario (being one of the 9 best players -- YES), is better slotted in #2 hole and SS when there were clear better solutions on paper that would make the team better "on paper" if he and Gimenez switch. Yes, there is something there that Tito knows (on personalities) why the better fielder and better hitter after last year is not being switch in ST as 29 other managers would think is more logical. Anderson isn't batting 9th and playing 2nd over Andrus. Correra isn't batting 9th and playing 2nd over Gordon. There is a reason Witt is moving back to SS after breaking in his first year but not moving down to the 9 hole or playing 2nd again. Makes a GM go hmmmm why is that???? Is it worth a $100 million gamble that the issues is with Rosario or Gimenez who just played a really good SS for Venezuela.
.

"It's been done this way" is not an argument for its validity. Lots of things were done wrong in baseball for a long time and it took "analytics" to figure out what was wrong. Yeah, all else equal, I'd probably agree with you on putting the better fielder at SS, however I don't really think it's a big deal and we aren't going to benefit as a team overall from absorbing Amed's growing pains at 2B for a half of year or whatever when he could instead just be working on his hitting.

I honestly just think that Tito prefers comfort for all players and if someone is performing better in a certain spot he will just keep him there. I don't see why this error if you call it that should be pinned on Rosario himself. Maybe it is totally Amed and Amed alone but I really just think it's more of a management philosophy which is slow to make changes because in theory comfort in routine will improve performance. The whole lineup outside of Kwan leading off, Straw #9, and catcher #8, is pretty suboptimal, perhaps starting with the best hitter hitting #3 but the question is - if he were to shuffle the lineup around more, would the players still hit as well as they do? I have no clue honestly.

 

[petes999]

"It's been done this way" is not an argument for its validity. Lots of things were done wrong in baseball for a long time and it took "analytics" to figure out what was wrong. Yeah, all else equal, I'd probably agree with you on putting the better fielder at SS, however I don't really think it's a big deal and we aren't going to benefit as a team overall from absorbing Amed's growing pains at 2B for a half of year or whatever when he could instead just be working on his hitting.

I honestly just think that Tito prefers comfort for all players and if someone is performing better in a certain spot he will just keep him there. I don't see why this error if you call it that should be pinned on Rosario himself. Maybe it is totally Amed and Amed alone but I really just think it's more of a management philosophy which is slow to make changes because in theory comfort in routine will improve performance. The whole lineup outside of Kwan leading off, Straw #9, and catcher #8, is pretty suboptimal, perhaps starting with the best hitter hitting #3 but the question is - if he were to shuffle the lineup around more, would the players still hit as well as they do? I have no clue honestly.

Then are we saying much different? And, what I said originally, I would have liked Tito to try to switch them this spring for a few games when it doesn't matter, to see if Amed had the same comfort to hit in the 6/7 spot in lineup as #2 (could have been done even with Gimenez around the last few weeks). And, again, you said my point -- comfort level. If Amed needs comfort in #2 hole (whether a mental stubborn block or not -- always been the best and top of the line-up since age 5 comfort -- as stubbornness isn't always that glance saying don't you dare change status quo), it was my point will another GM want to risk a $100 million contract on someone that Tito wouldn't even move around in ST to see what works best (what does he know that we don't question in the back of their minds). But, for 75+ more at bats one gets at #2 hole than #6/7 in a years, I want my best hitters in 1-5 spots... and FanGraph OWar projections are not even close to blame it one player is interchangable with others, other than Ramirez. This is where analytics would support 100 years of logic the old timers knew all along.

 

[Gson]

Not to get into a pissing match .. but yes 2nd basemen have more putouts than SS .... statistics as Bimbo said have to be used with a grain of salt. The throw from 2nd is shorter and thus they have more time to make the play and thus play deeper (until this year) and thus get to more plays. But there is a reason Lindor, Turner and cast of other top players play SS and those with less abilities play 2nd on a NORMAL team. I guess Tito is just a genius as he and Chris found out that 100 years of SS/2nd base battles have been wrong and do not matter and actually you want your best fielder at 2nd (as long as arms are comparable).

SO fine Rosario is sitting on his hands ... I have no problem with it. My argument was what defines a leader that SC was making. Yet, I guess Turner, Ramirez and many others have been wrong (out of line and insubordinate) in the past to speak up and offer flexibility in position and batting order for the good of team as a manager has the one and only voice. I was ALSO making the point (to another point that Rosario is getting 9 figures) that without him showing flexibility in moving up or down the line up or moving to 2nd for a few games (due to being silent and not being a Turner or Ramirez on saying coach - play me where ever helps the team), he is possibly limiting his options in FA as his moves so far away from 2nd in order and SS position haven't gone to well (so far). It puts a hesitation in GM minds if they were willing to gamble on $100 million. They are wondering why Tito in face of all MoneyBall logic given to him by best FO geeks in the league, thinks Rosario (being one of the 9 best players -- YES), is better slotted in #2 hole and SS when there were clear better solutions on paper that would make the team better "on paper" if he and Gimenez switch. Yes, there is something there that Tito knows (on personalities) why the better fielder and better hitter after last year is not being switch in ST as 29 other managers would think is more logical. Anderson isn't batting 9th and playing 2nd over Andrus. Correra isn't batting 9th and playing 2nd over Gordon. There is a reason Witt is moving back to SS after breaking in his first year but not moving down to the 9 hole or playing 2nd again. Makes a GM go hmmmm why is that???? Is it worth a $100 million gamble that the issues is with Rosario or Gimenez who just played a really good SS for Venezuela.
.
EDIT - Sorry for sarcasm but my point of how many infielders have switched to OF and at least been decent (maybe except Kipnis to CF). And with all his abilities and team need, Rosario couldn't make the switch over 2 springs (to even be an average OF), sorry to me that says a lot (regardless if he speaks up or not). Stubbornness for me comes in many forms beyond his lack of need to speak up which you are focusing on to try to prove me wrong. Just giving an opinion, take it or leave it ....

your opinion that Andres played a great defensive spot for Venezuela in the WBC is on point & valid.. the rest of this is conjecture, rhetoric and valid, as well..

 

[KluberSociety]

Then are we saying much different? And, what I said originally, I would have liked Tito to try to switch them this spring for a few games when it doesn't matter, to see if Amed had the same comfort to hit in the 6/7 spot in lineup as #2 (could have been done even with Gimenez around the last few weeks). And, again, you said my point -- comfort level. If Amed needs comfort in #2 hole (whether a mental stubborn block or not -- always been the best and top of the line-up since age 5 comfort -- as stubbornness isn't always that glance saying don't you dare change status quo), it was my point will another GM want to risk a $100 million contract on someone that Tito wouldn't even move around in ST to see what works best (what does he know that we don't question in the back of their minds). But, for 75+ more at bats one gets at #2 hole than #6/7 in a years, I want my best hitters in 1-5 spots... and FanGraph OWar projections are not even close to blame it one player is interchangable with others, other than Ramirez. This is where analytics would support 100 years of logic the old timers knew all along.

I think there's an assumption built into here which I just don't see evidence of. It may be right, I really don't know.

But Amed was inserted into the 2 hole early last year when Straw was struggling, and he did much better than Straw, and at the time he was probably one of the more logical people to swap in, in place of Straw (Gimenez and Miller had a spotty track record, OGonz was still in AAA, others like Mercado were struggling, etc). Since that swap was made the lineup took off and never really looked back so a simple "if it ain't broke don't fix it" philosophy from Tito's direction could easily explain why it happened, as opposed to anything to do with Rosario's personality specifically. And maybe the team as a whole just feels more confident out there with the every day lineup and a tad superstitious and they would also prefer just keep things as they are.

But yeah a $100 million contract on Rosario would be downright stupid and I don't think anyone is going to give him that.

Also I'm not trying to "prove you wrong" as you said in an earlier post. I just remain unconvinced that this is a personality problem on Rosario's side. And some people just don't take well to the OF. Doesn't mean they are stubborn necessarily. I think Jose Ramirez and Carlos Santana tried OF at some point and just weren't very good at it although JRam's talent was wasted there too.

 

[petes999]

I think there's an assumption built into here which I just don't see evidence of. It may be right, I really don't know.

But Amed was inserted into the 2 hole early last year when Straw was struggling, and he did much better than Straw, and at the time he was probably one of the more logical people to swap in, in place of Straw (Gimenez and Miller had a spotty track record, OGonz was still in AAA, others like Mercado were struggling, etc). Since that swap was made the lineup took off and never really looked back so a simple "if it ain't broke don't fix it" philosophy from Tito's direction could easily explain why it happened, as opposed to anything to do with Rosario's personality specifically. And maybe the team as a whole just feels more confident out there with the every day lineup and a tad superstitious and they would also prefer just keep things as they are.

But yeah a $100 million contract on Rosario would be downright stupid and I don't think anyone is going to give him that.

Also I'm not trying to "prove you wrong" as you said in an earlier post. I just remain unconvinced that this is a personality problem on Rosario's side. And some people just don't take well to the OF. Doesn't mean they are stubborn necessarily. I think Jose Ramirez and Carlos Santana tried OF at some point and just weren't very good at it although JRam's talent was wasted there too.

We can go around in circles because with your logic, it was working last year without Bell in the line-up so why is he going to bat #4/#5 ... Because he is a good hitter, has power, you put him in #4/#5 slot and thus move Oscar down (but Oscar worked just fine last year and not broken, so why change???).

They didn't change it last year (agree with you - midseason as Gimenez had to prove himself) but was it good enough to get past NY, last year? No!!! Thus, why not tinker with it to make it better (good enough for a stronger playoff run). As you said, lineup isn't good enough outside of Ramirez. FG Steamer is projecting Gimenez at over a double OWar than Rosario (12+ vs 5+). To me that means seeing (at least in ST and maybe first week or two), if the guy with the better Avg, OBP, SLG and OPS and WAR and ..... list goes on, would preform even bettter with Ramirez behind him (as protection) than Zunino or Hedges (last year). With all the analytics and 100 years of baseball knowledge, is there one statistic that Rosario leads Gimenez in that would mean Ramirez would have more RBIs (better for team) with Rosario's lower OBP ahead of him than Gimenez who has over 50 points better OBP and just as many SB to get to 2nd base for Ramirez to score him on a single?

Okay, Rosario may score 2 or 4 times from 1st to home on a double that everyone points too, but Gimenez will be on based 600 AB x .05 = 30 more times than Rosario and has more power to offset any speed advantage that Rosario has to get to 2nd even more to set Ramirez up (SLG which is .06 higher for Gimenez would reflect Amed speed in pushing a double vs a single or triple vs double). What is more valuable???

Again, Gimenez is a better hitter in almost every metric ... even with being pitched around with Hedges behind him. Logic would say, Gimenez would do better with Ramirez behind him (and Rosario only did so well with Ramirez behind him) - so gap between Gimenez and Rosario grows with a change. And, with new rules, Gimenez being on base more, than no walk Rosario, distracting the pitcher with limited step offs, will only make Ramirez better as pitcher cannot focus as well on 2 things without a step off to reset.