2023 Guardians Spring Training Thread

[KluberSociety]

We can go around in circles because with your logic, it was working last year without Bell in the line-up so why is he going to bat #4/#5 ... Because he is a good hitter, has power, you put him in #4/#5 slot and thus move Oscar down (but Oscar worked just fine last year and not broken, so why change???).

They didn't change it last year (agree with you - midseason as Gimenez had to prove himself) but was it good enough to get past NY, last year? No!!! Thus, why not tinker with it to make it better (good enough for a stronger playoff run). As you said, lineup isn't good enough outside of Ramirez. FG Steamer is projecting Gimenez at over a double OWar than Rosario (12+ vs 5+). To me that means seeing (at least in ST and maybe first week or two), if the guy with the better Avg, OBP, SLG and OPS and WAR and ..... list goes on, would preform even bettter with Ramirez behind him (as protection) than Zunino or Hedges (last year). With all the analytics and 100 years of baseball knowledge, is there one statistic that Rosario leads Gimenez in that would mean Ramirez would have more RBIs (better for team) with Rosario's lower OBP ahead of him than Gimenez who has over 50 points better OBP and just as many SB to get to 2nd base for Ramirez to score him on a single?

Okay, Rosario may score 2 or 4 times from 1st to home on a double that everyone points too, but Gimenez will be on based 600 AB x .05 = 30 more times than Rosario and has more power to offset any speed advantage that Rosario has to get to 2nd even more to set Ramirez up (SLG which is .06 higher for Gimenez would reflect Amed speed in pushing a double vs a single or triple vs double). What is more valuable???

Again, Gimenez is a better hitter in almost every metric ... even with being pitched around with Hedges behind him. Logic would say, Gimenez would do better with Ramirez behind him (and Rosario only did so well with Ramirez behind him) - so gap between Gimenez and Rosario grows with a change. And, with new rules, Gimenez being on base more, than no walk Rosario, distracting the pitcher with limited step offs, will only make Ramirez better as pitcher cannot focus as well on 2 things without a step off to reset.

Just to be clear this is not my logic per se, it's me attempting to guess Tito's logic and I think we can agree to agree that the lineup SHOULD be changed and would be were it not for some "stubbornness" somewhere. I just don't see pinning it on the specific player (Rosario) being fair.

I'm partial to the Kwan/JRam/Gimenez lineup personally. I also think it's time we just went ahead and did it now but alas we aren't getting it or maybe the plans are to run out the other lineup for a bit and then if it struggles then there will be more of a data-driven defense for shuffling it around. If going by last year's process maybe we will get that new lineup sooner than later. We can only hope...

Re: stubbornness, an interesting thing was when Bimbo brought up that as part of Jose's contract he was essentially promised that he would only have to play 3B. I wonder if he has a personal preference to hitting 3rd as well. Now this isn't exactly typical "stubbornness" in the typical sense because he took a large pay cut versus what he would've gotten on the open market. But he does seem like someone who likes his comfort... and also might like the comfort of his buddy Amed hitting in front of him. Who knows... There's many explanations to what goes on and I'm no insider.

 

[daddywags]

Not to get into a pissing match .. but yes 2nd basemen have more putouts than SS .... statistics as Bimbo said have to be used with a grain of salt. The throw from 2nd is shorter and thus they have more time to make the play and thus play deeper (until this year) and thus get to more plays. But there is a reason Lindor, Turner and cast of other top players play SS and those with less abilities play 2nd on a NORMAL team. I guess Tito is just a genius as he and Chris found out that 100 years of SS/2nd base battles have been wrong and do not matter and actually you want your best fielder at 2nd (as long as arms are comparable).

SO fine Rosario is sitting on his hands ... I have no problem with it. My argument was what defines a leader that SC was making. Yet, I guess Turner, Ramirez and many others have been wrong (out of line and insubordinate) in the past to speak up and offer flexibility in position and batting order for the good of team as a manager has the one and only voice. I was ALSO making the point (to another point that Rosario is getting 9 figures) that without him showing flexibility in moving up or down the line up or moving to 2nd for a few games (due to being silent and not being a Turner or Ramirez on saying coach - play me where ever helps the team), he is possibly limiting his options in FA as his moves so far away from 2nd in order and SS position haven't gone to well (so far). It puts a hesitation in GM minds if they were willing to gamble on $100 million. They are wondering why Tito in face of all MoneyBall logic given to him by best FO geeks in the league, thinks Rosario (being one of the 9 best players -- YES), is better slotted in #2 hole and SS when there were clear better solutions on paper that would make the team better "on paper" if he and Gimenez switch. Yes, there is something there that Tito knows (on personalities) why the better fielder and better hitter after last year is not being switch in ST as 29 other managers would think is more logical. Anderson isn't batting 9th and playing 2nd over Andrus. Correra isn't batting 9th and playing 2nd over Gordon. There is a reason Witt is moving back to SS after breaking in his first year but not moving down to the 9 hole or playing 2nd again. Makes a GM go hmmmm why is that???? Is it worth a $100 million gamble that the issues is with Rosario or Gimenez who just played a really good SS for Venezuela.
.
EDIT - Sorry for sarcasm but my point of how many infielders have switched to OF and at least been decent (maybe except Kipnis to CF). And with all his abilities and team need, Rosario couldn't make the switch over 2 springs (to even be an average OF), sorry to me that says a lot (regardless if he speaks up or not). Stubbornness for me comes in many forms beyond his lack of need to speak up which you are focusing on to try to prove me wrong. Just giving an opinion, take it or leave it ....

I'm going to leave it. I've seen no evidence that Rosario has a bad attitude or negative personality issues. Those types don't last long around this franchise.

 

[petes999]

Just as an aside .... I never used the world "bad attitude" or "negative personality" in regards to Rosario. This is why I took a month and half time out from the site until now. I did use the world stubborn only after KS said "@petes999 where do you get the idea that Amed's stubbornness is why he's locked in at SS hitting 2nd?" In clarifying, I was alluding to Rosario maybe more comfortable in 2nd in batting order and/or SS due to mental stubbornness-block as it is what he has always done since age of 5 (that is not a bad attitude). Just wanting to figure out despite several times Mets and Guardians wanted him somewhere else, he always went back to SS quickly. And, to that, KS ... glad we clarified it as more comfort as to why Rosario is probably where he is at- where he excels to 3 WAR player. I never did question his effort on the field (hustle like Ramirez) or his overall attitude. Comfort/ mental stuborness block was used later (stubborn only due to KS bringing it up first) but, the sports psychology of doing one's best is hard even for the best athletes despite best attitude or personality. Its called the yippes. Why can Rosario catch pop-flys in infield in gusty winds but mess it up in the OF? So, please respond to the words I use instead of the words you believe I am thinking.

And, Ramirez has every right now to be stubborn and play 3B now till he is using a walker like Cabrera. I am fine with your top 2-3 players being in a position or batting order that brings out the best of them due to comfort (Gimenez is nearing or in that group). But, for me, Ramirez going to TIto to offer to play 2nd or 3rd several years back showed the club who he is as a leader just as much as the team-friendly contract (love of wearing Guardians uniform).

 

[DCTribefan]

 

[DCTribefan]

 

[daddywags]

Just as an aside .... I never used the world "bad attitude" or "negative personality" in regards to Rosario. This is why I took a month and half time out from the site until now. I did use the world stubborn only after KS said "@petes999 where do you get the idea that Amed's stubbornness is why he's locked in at SS hitting 2nd?" In clarifying, I was alluding to Rosario maybe more comfortable in 2nd in batting order and/or SS due to mental stubbornness-block as it is what he has always done since age of 5 (that is not a bad attitude). Just wanting to figure out despite several times Mets and Guardians wanted him somewhere else, he always went back to SS quickly. And, to that, KS ... glad we clarified it as more comfort as to why Rosario is probably where he is at- where he excels to 3 WAR player. I never did question his effort on the field (hustle like Ramirez) or his overall attitude. Comfort/ mental stuborness block was used later (stubborn only due to KS bringing it up first) but, the sports psychology of doing one's best is hard even for the best athletes despite best attitude or personality. Its called the yippes. Why can Rosario catch pop-flys in infield in gusty winds but mess it up in the OF? So, please respond to the words I use instead of the words you believe I am thinking.

And, Ramirez has every right now to be stubborn and play 3B now till he is using a walker like Cabrera. I am fine with your top 2-3 players being in a position or batting order that brings out the best of them due to comfort (Gimenez is nearing or in that group). But, for me, Ramirez going to TIto to offer to play 2nd or 3rd several years back showed the club who he is as a leader just as much as the team-friendly contract (love of wearing Guardians uniform).

Not to unnecessarily prolong this, but in your post to which I replied you said "there is something there that Tito knows (on personalities) why the better fielder and better hitter after last year is not being switched . . .etc." I took that as directed at Rosario.

 

[CDAV45]

I'm going to leave it. I've seen no evidence that Rosario has a bad attitude or negative personality issues. Those types don't last long around this franchise.

I don't think there is any evidence that Rosario has a bad attitude because he has a great attitude. Sorry, I hate it when a conversation gets taken in a direction that it was never meant to go or should have never gone. I think everyone here regardless of what they think of Rosario's play believes he is a genuinely excellent dude. Including me.

 

[CATS44]

If you dont believe in the value of intangibles...and many don't...you dont much like Amed.

But Tito does, and goes out of his way to say so.

Amed has them in spades.

He was enthusiastic to try the outfield, but he was never put out there consistently to learn. In order to protect Gimenez vs lefties, Amed was bounced early on.

And Tito said so.

No player tells Tito where and when he will play, or where he will hit in the order. If you believe otherwise, there is no sense talking about it...because you have no clue as to how things work in this org. Players who dont go with the flow dont last long here.

Amed is the shortstop here for one reason only. In the opinion of the decision makers...and those guys have proven to be very good at what they do...Amed gives the team the best chance to win now. As long as this years team is in contention, he will be the starting shortstop.

Get over it.

 

[Criznit]

Here have some good news you filthy savages...

 

[petes999]

Not to unnecessarily prolong this, but in your post to which I replied you said "there is something there that Tito knows (on personalities) why the better fielder and better hitter after last year is not being switched . . .etc." I took that as directed at Rosario.

Amed is the shortstop here for one reason only. In the opinion of the decision makers...and those guys have proven to be very good at what they do...Amed gives the team the best chance to win now. As long as this years team is in contention, he will be the starting shortstop.

Get over it.

Guess there is nothing left to say as the GODS have spoken ... but for DW -- Personalities is a big catch all ... to what KS and I started to agree on ... comfort level. IDK what is the real reason but some people are just more comfortable with change and excel when given a new challenge and some people need more time to adapt. It AINT a personal dig at Rosario no matter what people imply. Just limits his versatility to fit a team, especially if he wants a large contract in FA. Maybe Tito has tried Rosario at 2nd in the back fields only to see he throws like Steve Sax (the 5-time All-Star 2nd baseman who just couldn't throw to 1st one year - no matter how easy and routine it was). Why I said, some players just get the Yipes when not in their comfort zone, no mater how enthusiastic or motivated they are.

 

[daddywags]

Guess there is nothing left to say as the GODS have spoken ... but for DW -- Personalities is a big catch all ... to what KS and I started to agree on ... comfort level. IDK what is the real reason but some people are just more comfortable with change and excel when given a new challenge and some people need more time to adapt. It AINT a personal dig at Rosario no matter what people imply. Just limits his versatility to fit a team, especially if he wants a large contract in FA. Maybe Tito has tried Rosario at 2nd in the back fields only to see he throws like Steve Sax (the 5-time All-Star 2nd baseman who just couldn't throw to 1st one year - no matter how easy and routine it was). Why I said, some players just get the Yipes when not in their comfort zone, no mater how enthusiastic or motivated they are.

We can agree on all that. Thanks for a reasonable, rational, discussion. We can all use more of that these days.

 

[Huber.]

Who let the Mariners schedule their opening day for 10pm ET? And the first 5/7 past my bed time?

 

[CATS44]

The GODs have spoken, and their names are Antonetti, Chernoff, and Francona.

 

[AllforOne]

Who let the Mariners schedule their opening day for 10pm ET? And the first 5/7 past my bed time?

There’s a certain level of irony in you posting this comment at 11:18 PM, no?

(BTW, I agree. I’ll miss most of that first week.)

 

[macbdog]

Who let the Mariners schedule their opening day for 10pm ET? And the first 5/7 past my bed time?

Funny, thought baseball was caring about the clock now. Just baseball continuing to kill it's game.