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2023 NBA Draft

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He supposedly turned in his phone, plus they can easily access all the text records . If there is a reason to press charges it will happen . That obviously changes everything.

Having had some exposure to people that work in NBA scouting departments, I think it is really oversold how much criminal charges matter here. Just in this one incident, there's just ALOT of bad decision making, over and over and over. From what we know:
  • He allowed someone to store a gun in his car, that was not his
  • After his friend has been drinking, he agrees to bring the gun back to him
  • After seeing the situation escalating, he does not intervene or just turn his car around
  • Not only that, law enforcement claims he helped block the victim in with his vehicle
  • After the murder, he meets with the AD and DOES NOT disclose he was communicating with the shooter (with the Athletic Director or his coach)
Specifically, Byrne told ESPN’s College Gameday podcast that the school did not know about Miles’ text message request to Miller asking the freshman forward to bring Miles’ gun to the scene. “That information was new to me,” Byrne said Wednesday. “I had not been told that before.”

That is just a lot of bad to me. The pattern of behavior continuing, like not telling the AD he had been communicating with Davis is probably the bigger one from a red flag perspective. I can try to get some reaction from a few of my scouting friends and post quotes.......but I would imagine there are many teams that don't need to see or hear much more to just take him off their board. I won't speak for everyone........but evaluating character and talking yourself in to it being a more isolated incident starts to break apart pretty quickly when post incident, he's not clearly laying out everything that happened with the AD and Coach. Teams are really going to want answers on that I would guess.......and how he answers the question with teams "Why didn't you tell your athletic director or coach you had texted with the murder suspect that night?" will probably determine wether he does or does not stay on some teams' boards.

As of right now it appears he did not actually touch the gun or particulate in any attempt to block cars or cover up a crime .

Based on what? His Lawyers statement? I think it is pretty hard to reconcile how his windshield was shot twice if he was not blocking the victim's vehicle. His Lawyer stated "the Jeep pulled up behind him, while Miller just sat in his car". Ok, really? So we are all to believe the victim's car is behind Miller and somehow two bullets go through just his windshield? And Miller is just hanging out? Talk me through the physics of this. :chuckle: Gun being shot at victim's car, gun being shot returning fire.......all this happening behind Miller's car (claims his lawyer) and bullets are going through his windshield? Ok. Not a lot adding up here right? Pretty easy to envision how the bullets got there if his car is parked bumper to bumper to the victim though.

Wether it is right or wrong ( ethical issue) most teams won’t pass on a player who could turn into a top 20 nba player if he never gets charged and they are convinced he won’t be a problem in the community or locker room .

That isn't really my argument here. The Browns also traded a slew of picks and guaranteed $200 million to a guy who exposed himself to probably 100's of women. Wasn't convicted of a crime, still seems like a pretty suspect decision almost a year later......and it is a decision that could cost a good GM his job.
 
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Having had some exposure to people that work in NBA scouting departments, I think it is really oversold how much criminal charges matter here. Just in this one incident, there's just ALOT of bad decision making, over and over and over. From what we know:
  • He allowed someone to store a gun in his car, that was not his
  • After his friend has been drinking, he agrees to bring the gun back to him
  • After seeing the situation escalating, he does not intervene or just turn his car around
  • Not only that, law enforcement claims he helped block the victim in with his vehicle
  • After the murder, he meets with the AD and DOES NOT disclose he was communicating with the shooter (with the Athletic Director or his coach)


That is just a lot of bad to me. The pattern of behavior continuing, like not telling the AD he had been communicating with Davis is probably the bigger one from a red flag perspective. I can try to get some reaction from a few of my scouting friends and post quotes.......but I would imagine there are many teams that don't need to see or hear much more to just take him off their board. I won't speak for everyone........but evaluating character and talking yourself in to it being a more isolated incident starts to break apart pretty quickly when post incident, he's not clearly laying out everything that happened with the AD and Coach. Teams are really going to want answers on that I would guess.......and how he answers the question with teams "Why didn't you tell your athletic director or coach you had texted with the murder suspect that night?" will probably determine wether he does or does not stay on some teams' boards.



Based on what? His Lawyers statement? I think it is pretty hard to reconcile how his windshield was shot twice if he was not blocking the victim's vehicle. His Lawyer stated "the Jeep pulled up behind him, while Miller just sat in his car". Ok, really? So we are all to believe the victim's car is behind Miller and somehow two bullets go through just his windshield? And Miller is just hanging out? Talk me through the physics of this. :chuckle: Gun being shot at victim's car, gun being shot returning fire.......all this happening behind Miller's car (claims his lawyer) and bullets are going through his windshield? Ok. Not a lot adding up here right? Pretty easy to envision how the bullets got there if his car is parked bumper to bumper to the victim though.



That isn't really my argument here. The Browns also traded a slew of picks and guaranteed $200 million to a guy who exposed himself to probably 100's of women. Wasn't convicted of a crime, still seems like a pretty suspect decision almost a year later......and it is a decision that could cost a good GM his job.

At the very best case scenario, he's guilty of horrific decision making, whether that's being naive or what, that put himself at risk of being killed. Given that he would ideally be worth several hundred million in contracts as well as the draft pick cost to a team, that's an absolute red flag.

And even if he isn't charged legally, he's still morally culpable in the death of an innocent woman. No matter what is said, if he exhibited better decision making (why the hell are you bringing a gun back to someone who has been drinking), then she would still be alive.
 
I think you are making too many assumptions based off of a letter by a lawyer, who’s duty is not to speak the truth here but to keep his client out of legal trouble.

The Alabama AD said they found out Miller was actively texting Davis when authorities testified on Tuesday. As in Miller “forgot” to disclose that to them. So there’s already also some breadcrumbs of Miller not being forthcoming either here, even after the fact.

Wether he is charged or not is less of the point here. There’s just too much really poor decision making for it not to be a huge red flag for me. I’m sure someone will take the chance but I would need a lot clearer info, from someone I really trusted, to bet a top pick on him.

One thing I think is worth pointing out.

The most damaging text in question - the one where Miles texted Miller "I need my joint a n***a rl jus got fakin" - a clear request to deliver a gun - didn't actually happen until 1:38 a.m. ET.

The police were dispatched because of multiple shots fired at 1:45 a.m. ET.

So we're talking about a very narrow gap of time here from when Miles texted Miller that he needed his gun which was in the backseat of Miller's car and when the trigger was pulled. We're talking just a 6-7 minute window here.

According to reports Miller was already on his way to the area to pick Miles up from the scene and given the timeframe, Miller really had to have been almost actually at the scene already when Miles texted him to deliver the gun.

It's *possible* that Miller...

A. Was completely unaware that Miles' gun was even in his car until the text came in 1:38 a.m. ET. By that time he was also likely just a few blocks away from the scene and arriving within a matter of a couple of minutes regardless.

B. It's also possible that Miller didn't actually see/read the text in question from Miles about delivering the gun and simply pulled up to the area expecting to pick Miles up and take him home. Only for Miles and Davis get in his backseat, recover a gun, and then immediately get out of the car to approach another nearby vehicle and start shooting.

I'm not saying either of those things are likely, but given the information we have, it seems like those could be possible outcomes here.
 
Being guilty of poor decision making will not keep you from getting a shot at playing in the nba if you are a high level prospect. You would be naive to think that plenty of those guys have not been heavily involved in the league in the past.

Criminal activity and charges is a huge deal . If the incident remains an ethical issue ( we don’t know the full answer ) it’s very different from someone on trial for helping commit a felony murder .

If he remains with the team and gets fully cleared of any criminal activity you are likely going to see him picked in the top 10 if not top 5. That also assumes this is not a pattern of behavior . Wether you think that is morally or ethically right is a different story all together.
 
Having had some exposure to people that work in NBA scouting departments, I think it is really oversold how much criminal charges matter here. Just in this one incident, there's just ALOT of bad decision making, over and over and over. From what we know:
  • He allowed someone to store a gun in his car, that was not his
  • After his friend has been drinking, he agrees to bring the gun back to him
  • After seeing the situation escalating, he does not intervene or just turn his car around
  • Not only that, law enforcement claims he helped block the victim in with his vehicle
  • After the murder, he meets with the AD and DOES NOT disclose he was communicating with the shooter (with the Athletic Director or his coach)


That is just a lot of bad to me. The pattern of behavior continuing, like not telling the AD he had been communicating with Davis is probably the bigger one from a red flag perspective. I can try to get some reaction from a few of my scouting friends and post quotes.......but I would imagine there are many teams that don't need to see or hear much more to just take him off their board. I won't speak for everyone........but evaluating character and talking yourself in to it being a more isolated incident starts to break apart pretty quickly when post incident, he's not clearly laying out everything that happened with the AD and Coach. Teams are really going to want answers on that I would guess.......and how he answers the question with teams "Why didn't you tell your athletic director or coach you had texted with the murder suspect that night?" will probably determine wether he does or does not stay on some teams' boards.



Based on what? His Lawyers statement? I think it is pretty hard to reconcile how his windshield was shot twice if he was not blocking the victim's vehicle. His Lawyer stated "the Jeep pulled up behind him, while Miller just sat in his car". Ok, really? So we are all to believe the victim's car is behind Miller and somehow two bullets go through just his windshield? And Miller is just hanging out? Talk me through the physics of this. :chuckle: Gun being shot at victim's car, gun being shot returning fire.......all this happening behind Miller's car (claims his lawyer) and bullets are going through his windshield? Ok. Not a lot adding up here right? Pretty easy to envision how the bullets got there if his car is parked bumper to bumper to the victim though.



That isn't really my argument here. The Browns also traded a slew of picks and guaranteed $200 million to a guy who exposed himself to probably 100's of women. Wasn't convicted of a crime, still seems like a pretty suspect decision almost a year later......and it is a decision that could cost a good GM his job.
All we can go by is that the police say there is currently no reason to press charges against Miller . Wether his lawyer is telling the truth won’t be known right away. Until the police totally finish a complete investigation and make final decisions I think it’s premature for anyone to say teams won’t be drafting him.
 
Being guilty of poor decision making will not keep you from getting a shot at playing in the nba if you are a high level prospect. You would be naive to think that plenty of those guys have not been heavily involved in the league in the past.

Criminal activity and charges is a huge deal . If the incident remains an ethical issue ( we don’t know the full answer ) it’s very different from someone on trial for helping commit a felony murder .

If he remains with the team and gets fully cleared of any criminal activity you are likely going to see him picked in the top 10 . That also assumes this is not a pattern of behavior . Wether you think that is morally or ethically right is a different story all together.

I think you are making an argument to a side no one is taking. I don't think anyone is naive. Will he be drafted? Yes. Would I want to draft him? No.

He made what appears to be several (at best) questionable decisions in the lead up to someone being murdered. We aren't talking about a parking ticket here. Calling this a "moral or ethical" thing underplays the situation to me.

We'll see how the details shake out as there are more hearings / court dates but at first glance, there are a lot of unanswered questions here and AT BEST, he seems to be incredibly dumb or naive as to his status as a future NBA player and the amount of money he had / has on the line here.

It's *possible* that Miller...

A. Was completely unaware that Miles' gun was even in his car until the text came in 1:38 a.m. ET. By that time he was also likely just a few blocks away from the scene and arriving within a matter of a couple of minutes regardless.

B. It's also possible that Miller didn't actually see/read the text in question from Miles about delivering the gun and simply pulled up to the area expecting to pick Miles up and take him home. Only for Miles and Davis get in his backseat, recover a gun, and then immediately get out of the car to approach another nearby vehicle and start shooting.

I'm not saying either of those things are likely, but given the information we have, it seems like those could be possible outcomes here.

It will be interesting to see how eyewitness accounts lineup with these details. Additionally, law enforcement had his phone and depending on what kind of phone it is, the activity available to them can be pretty vast. They can see when a phone was picked up for example.......so for Miller's sake, I hope he actually did not see the text and there aren't read receipts or pick up time stamps that would make that doubtful. The details of there being surveillance is, I would imagine, the key piece in all of this. I would assume law enforcement saying Miller's car blocked the victim is corroborated by the surveillance footage but I guess we'll see.

I have an open mind here, as the details are still more sparse.......but there's just a lot that looks really bad for him. So much so, that he's going to need to have pretty compelling alignment on his story / witness testimony / surveillance footage etc. to look absolved.

Whole story just depresses me......ugh.
 
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It will be interesting to see how eyewitness accounts lineup with these details. Additionally, law enforcement had his phone and depending on what kind of phone it is, the activity available to them is pretty vast. They can see when a phone was picked up for example.......so for Miller's sake, I hope he actually did not see the text and there aren't read receipts or pick up time stamps that would make that doubtful. The details of there being surveillance is, I would imagine, the key piece in all of this. I would assume law enforcement saying Miller's car blocked the victim is corroborated by the surveillance footage but I guess we'll see.

I have an open mind here, as the details are still more sparse.......but there's just a lot that looks really bad for him. So much so, that he's going to need to have pretty compelling alignment on his story / witness testimony / surveillance footage etc. to look absolved.

Whole story just depresses me......ugh.

It's a very bad look for Miller. No question about that.

In the absolute best case scenario for Miller, he was just trying to pick up his drunk teammate and his drunk teammate's friend from a bar and when he showed up, they grabbed a gun out of the backseat of his car that they had left there previously without his knowledge. They then got out of his car and immediately approached another vehicle and started shooting.

When that's a person's best case scenario, it's certainly not good. And that being the outcome really does seem a bit farfetched/optimistic for Miller too.
 
I think you are making an argument to a side no one is taking. I don't think anyone is naive. Will he be drafted? Yes. Would I want to draft him? No.

He made what appears to be several (at best) questionable decisions in the lead up to someone being murdered. We aren't talking about a parking ticket here. Calling this a "moral or ethical" thing underplays the situation to me.

We'll see how the details shake out as there are more hearings / court dates but at first glance, there are a lot of unanswered questions here and AT BEST, he seems to be incredibly dumb or naive as to his status as a future NBA player and the amount of money he had / has on the line here.



It will be interesting to see how eyewitness accounts lineup with these details. Additionally, law enforcement had his phone and depending on what kind of phone it is, the activity available to them can be pretty vast. They can see when a phone was picked up for example.......so for Miller's sake, I hope he actually did not see the text and there aren't read receipts or pick up time stamps that would make that doubtful. The details of there being surveillance is, I would imagine, the key piece in all of this. I would assume law enforcement saying Miller's car blocked the victim is corroborated by the surveillance footage but I guess we'll see.

I have an open mind here, as the details are still more sparse.......but there's just a lot that looks really bad for him. So much so, that he's going to need to have pretty compelling alignment on his story / witness testimony / surveillance footage etc. to look absolved.

Whole story just depresses me......ugh.
If there is evidence he broke the law he will be charged . You are entitled to your opinion about not wanting him on your favorite team.

Just remember these GMs are paid to put a winning product on the court . In a fairly tale world all 15 guys are like Jarrett Allen but that is just not always realistic . If I am a GM and think he is going to be a dynamic wing and a great prospect who can help make my team be a contender in the long run , and I think he can get along with his teammates and stay out of trouble it is going to be hard for me to pass him up.


The lottery teams will run their own investigations into the history and background of the kid. They will know a lot more about his character than the average fan. In the end very few fans will stop supporting their team if they pick Miller and he turns into an all star . That’s just reality.

How many people in Baltimore stopped following the Ravevs after the Ray Lewis incident?
 
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If there is evidence he broke the law he will be charged . You are entitled to your opinion about not wanting him on your favorite team.

Just remember these GMs are paid to put a winning product on the court . In a fairly tale world all 15 guys are like Jarrett Allen but that is just not always realistic . If I am a GM and think he is going to be a dynamic wing and a great prospect who can help make my team be a contender in the long run , and I think he can get along with his teammates and stay out of trouble it is going to be hard for me to pass him up.


The lottery teams will run their own investigations into the history and background of the kid. They will know a lot more about his character than the average fan. In the end very few fans will stop supporting their team if they pick Miller and he turns into an all star . That’s just reality.

How many people in Baltimore stopped following the Ravevs after the Ray Lewis incident?
I don't think anyone's arguing that at all. Assuming no criminal charges, Brandon Miller WILL be a first round pick, almost definitely lottery, and probably top 5. I don't think that's particularly up for debate. Someone will draft him because talent is first and foremost.

What we're all saying is, would we want the Cavs to take that risk over similarly or slightly lesser talented prospects? For me, the answer is a clear no. And given what I said above, if a team thinks as I do then they probably won't have an opportunity to draft him, since some team believes differently and will take that gamble.

Even giving him every benefit of the doubt and taking what his lawyer said as gospel, putting all morality aside, he still showed incredibly bad judgement and put himself at risk of getting seriously hurt or even killed. For example, Brandon Miller is going back and forth with Amen Thompson for 3rd pick in most mocks. If there was a question before, this makes it a no doubt issue for me to pick Amen, who apparently has a sparkling work ethic and background.

And I'm pretty sure the answer for Koby is hell no. We've only ever acquired one person with a hint of off-court concerns, KPJ, and that was more because he fell way too far and Koby didn't pay much for the gamble. He also jettisoned him for nothing as soon as it turned bad. We even let Kevin Love get bought out because we were worried about it affecting the locker room.
 
I don't think anyone's arguing that at all. Assuming no criminal charges, Brandon Miller WILL be a first round pick, almost definitely lottery, and probably top 5. I don't think that's particularly up for debate. Someone will draft him because talent is first and foremost.

What we're all saying is, would we want the Cavs to take that risk over similarly or slightly lesser talented prospects?

What "similarly or slightly lesser talented prospects" do the Cavaliers have access to in the 2nd round?

If a team near the top of the Lottery wants to pass on Miller, I have no issue with them making that decision. I don't agree with it, and would make a different choice, but that's not one I'd fight because their are (in theory) equally talented prospects. However, if he starts sliding toward/out of the the Lottery, or even further, I'm snatching the kid up without hesitation. VERY tragic situation. VERY stupid decisions. But, as far as we can tell, it was A single night of bad decisions and, I'm fairly certain (based on being a college athlete and knowing many others) those decisions were based on fear and ignorance, not arrogance and aggression. Miller made stupid choices based on a relationship with his teammate (who was troubled). What does he look like with Darius, Evan, JA, Don?

It wasn't Millers gun. It wasn't his relationship. It wasn't his friends. This isnt KPJ, who had a history of acting out (getting kicked off several teams, including his college team), drugs and alcohol, mental health issues, and underwhelming play. Miller has NONE of those things. Unless his skeletons are buried DEEEEEEEP in the closet, this will be a blip on his wikipedia page. I'm still drafting him as high as #2, and would do a dance if he was available in round 2.
 

This guy seems like he might be allergic to money.

 
Also, hes done that "intro" for the whole year.

It’s pretty fascinating how many people are carrying water for this guy.

He seems clueless and tone def…..and that might be a best case scenario.

At least his coach finally found a little bit of a backbone buried deep in his closet.
 
It’s pretty fascinating how many people are carrying water for this guy.

He seems clueless and tone def…..and that might be a best case scenario.

At least his coach finally found a little bit of a backbone buried deep in his closet.

I'm hard pressed to see him dropping out of the top 10 regardless of whether he should or shouldn't.

I wouldn't be shocked if he still goes 3rd :oops:
 
He is going to be a top 10 pick because people are going to look at the product on the court but I'm with @I'mWithDan. I don't want to invest a top pick into a player who has character red flags. The potential cost is more than just a wasted high draft pick
 

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