2024 Guardians Regular Season Thread

[Gson]

Wham, I don’t have the answers you are requiring to be convinced.

I am simply convinced that if Fry were even considered to have the ability to catch every day at a high level, some organization, especially the Guardians, would have pursued that.

Sportscoach claimed that Fry is more valuable because of positional flexibility, but given that he’s played almost exclusively DH and 1B when not catching, I think that claim is easily-refuted. The position he plays with the most defensive value (and positional scarcity among good hitters) is catcher.

It’s beyond clear that the Guardians don’t see him as a capable defensive catcher to play that spot every day. I tend to trust their analysis of catchers defensively.

agree with most of this...

... the caveat being:

-it's true, positional flexibility is a value for everyone..
-Fry cannot do that right now due to his injury/malady to throw making him limited as a1B/DH..

Thoughts?

 

[CDAV45]

Issue with Fry as an everyday (or majority) catcher is two fold. First, is the energy that it takes to do it every day. It is not like playing 1st base. Its like being able to run a mile race to running a marathon. It takes time to build up that everyday endurance.

Second, I would not trust the BA for catching and non-catching. We were warned that the more he caught the worse his numbers would be (due to toll of catching). Yet, a majority of his ABs as a catcher was when he was doing it every once and a while (playing just lefties) and not doing it every other day lest say. And, even then, the drain on the legs may not be in 1st or 2nd ABs but in 3rd and 4th ABs and the next day as well when he DHs to play everyday. It is hard to quantify unless you do it now (post-pitcher adjustment to him). Give him 2 weeks at DH/OF and 2 weeks at C and see the difference.

This^

Why risk reducing the value of his bat by changing his role? I think it's important to remember how Bo caught fire at the end of last season too. That Bo is basically irreplaceable at C because defensively he's been fantastic this season. I'm fine with Fry in his current role and they shouldn't fix what isn't broken. If you want to lengthen the lineup then get Rocchio out of it. I can't believe we haven't seen Martinez play more SS.

 

[Wham with the Right Hand]

Is your actual insight "David Fry bats better when he catches, and we should use him as a catcher every day because I expect him to continue to bat incredibly well"?

Because, Wham, buddy, I don't know how to tell you this--but that's one of the stupidest things you've written. There is no reason to pick out the handful of games Fry has played at catcher, ignoring all of the other games he's played, and make an analysis of that small sample size of at bats.

Well, I don't know if it's one of the stupidest things I've ever said. That's a pretty big collection.

But Jose Ramirez this year is hitting .308 as a 3rd baseman and .172 as a DH. He hits better when he's playing the entire game as opposed to sitting in the dugout and getting up every 40 minutes or so for a plate appearance. He doesn't like to DH.

Is it possible Fry hits better when he's involved in the game on every pitch as opposed to being the DH or standing in the outfield?

You don't want me to ignore Fry's other at-bats? OK, he's hitting .263/.712 as a first baseman, .295/.926 as a left fielder (filling in magnficently when Kwan was out), .304/.765 as a DH, and 2-for-14 as a pinch hitter.

My point was that playing catcher doesn't negatively affect his hitting - if anything it seems to help it.

And if he were the regular catcher I don't expect him to bat "incredibly well". Just a lot better than Bo, and I don't think anybody will disagree with that. The only thing Bo does better than Fry is frame pitches, and it's really hard to quantify how many strikes and outs the difference equates to, and how many games we won because of Bo's pitch framing that we would have lost had Fry been catching.

Just like it's hard to quantify how catching three games out of four would tire out Fry's legs and negatively affect his hitting. That's a theory, by the way. Is there any evidence it has any basis in fact? (question for the poster who brought it up)

 

[Wham with the Right Hand]

It’s beyond clear that the Guardians don’t see him as a capable defensive catcher to play that spot every day. I tend to trust their analysis of catchers defensively.

As I said in the other thread, the reasons Fry has not been catching much more often are 1) they needed him elsewhere, and 2) they are committed to developing Naylor as their catcher of the future. He's 24, has a lot of offensive potential, and needs to play regularly to achieve it. He's in the long term plan.

They needed Fry in left field when Kwan went down for a month. They put him at first base for 38 at-bats when there was a tough lefty starting and they didn't think Naylor or Manzardo could hit him. Fry is not Austin Hedges; he can play five positions.

I disagree that the Guardians don't see him as a "capable defensive catcher". You're assuming that because he's hitting well the reason he isn't starting at catcher is because he's bad defensively. He isn't. There are other reasons he isn't catching - his ability to bring right-handed pop to other positions and the commitment to developing Bo. One more - Carrasco at 37 needs all the help he can get and he likes Hedges, so Hedgie gets one game out of five.

 

[sportscoach]

Wham, I don’t have the answers you are requiring to be convinced.

I am simply convinced that if Fry were even considered to have the ability to catch every day at a high level, some organization, especially the Guardians, would have pursued that.

Sportscoach claimed that Fry is more valuable because of positional flexibility, but given that he’s played almost exclusively DH and 1B when not catching, I think that claim is easily-refuted. The position he plays with the most defensive value (and positional scarcity among good hitters) is catcher.

It’s beyond clear that the Guardians don’t see him as a capable defensive catcher to play that spot every day. I tend to trust their analysis of catchers defensively.

The problem is when Fry was getting to start catching more often, he had an elbow injury, which put him as the DH then he went to 1B when he was cleared to play the field first then it went to the All-star break...

He's a good enough catcher, he isn't a liability back there... Like on a catcher hungry team, he would be starting, but everyone knows Naylor is the future catcher and Hedges is the team captain so both need playing time... No Hedges right now, Fry would have been getting way more catching time. Not an opinion but a fact...

Essentially for the rest of the season... Naylor, Fry and Hedges are gonna to rotate the catching duties with majority going to Naylor... Fry and Hedges both getting a start or so a week since Fry is cleared to throw again... Then you will see pinch hits from Naylor/Fry as well...

 

[smalls1129]

The problem is when Fry was getting to start catching more often, he had an elbow injury, which put him as the DH then he went to 1B when he was cleared to play the field first then it went to the All-star break...

He's a good enough catcher, he isn't a liability back there... Like on a catcher hungry team, he would be starting, but everyone knows Naylor is the future catcher and Hedges is the team captain so both need playing time... No Hedges right now, Fry would have been getting way more catching time. Not an opinion but a fact...

Essentially for the rest of the season... Naylor, Fry and Hedges are gonna to rotate the catching duties with majority going to Naylor... Fry and Hedges both getting a start or so a week since Fry is cleared to throw again... Then you will see pinch hits from Naylor/Fry as well...

For the love of all that's holy...this org prioritizes defensive catchers (or grooms them), if they thought Fry had 'IT' as a catcher he would have originally made the team as a C. That he didn't doesn't mean he sucks, or not playable but the org made it clear starting C is not his best spot. Nothing has changed within this Org to change any of that. This is especially true when seeing how Bo completely sacrificed his O this off-season to become the receiver they believed he can be.

 

[Beanie4Heisman]

They should let David Fry catch more because when asked during an All Star Game interview what position was his favorite amongst all those he had played, he chose catcher.

 

[sportscoach]

For the love of all that's holy...this org prioritizes defensive catchers (or grooms them), if they thought Fry had 'IT' as a catcher he would have originally made the team as a C. That he didn't doesn't mean he sucks, or not playable but the org made it clear starting C is not his best spot. Nothing has changed within this Org to change any of that. This is especially true when seeing how Bo completely sacrificed his O this off-season to become the receiver they believed he can be.

He's still good enough to play as a backup on most teams....

Next season we will see how they plan on doing catcher... IF they don't bring back Hedges and/or sign someone on a MLB deal, that means they are giving Fry a chance to really get the innings at C...

 

[Beanie4Heisman]

 

[Gson]

They should let David Fry catch more because when asked during an All Star Game interview what position was his favorite amongst all those he had played, he chose catcher.

Being a catcher becomes kismet and a player's destiny.. It's a reflection of why you love the game.. You're involved in every single play.. Excluding being a pitcher [that a catcher contribute mightily to] only the first baseman approaches the level of involvement in every play.. Once you put "the pain" behind you [foul tips, getting hit in the head w/ the baseball bat on a follow through, bounced pitches, the heat, fatigue, etc.] being a catcher is the only spot you want to be on the field.. A day off would be as the 1B/3B or as an OF'er.. Fry's answer is to support the creed to the position on the field.. The mentality it takes to be an elite catcher is why catchers make the best managers..

Fry fits the mold.. his talent level as a catcher is still being revealed. He has a chance to be that guy... but hasn't achieved the level of an elite backstop, yet. He may never get there.. It should be noted that it has nothing to do with how he swings a bat... Bo appears to be converting into that elite level catcher.. With young guys.. if anything is sacrificed, it's the offensive side of the game..

Vogt has stated that Fry is deserving of more playing time.. for good reason..

 

[CalBuckeyeRob]

Look at Vogt's slow trek through the minors to a legit major league role and compare it to Fry's path. Other than batting from opposite sides of the plate, they look shockingly similar.

 

[CBBI]

 

[Obscured By Clouds]

Look at Vogt's slow trek through the minors to a legit major league role and compare it to Fry's path. Other than batting from opposite sides of the plate, they look shockingly similar.

You are talking about exceptions to the rule. Yes, sometimes people put it together later in their careers. Few and far between, though.

Fry had a fantastic two months to start the season. He has been horrible since then. At some point the feel good story needs to be re-examined as to what we actually have.

Schneemann is in the same boat.

These are bit players, not starters, and need replaced next year.

 

[sportscoach]

You are talking about exceptions to the rule. Yes, sometimes people put it together later in their careers. Few and far between, though.

Fry had a fantastic two months to start the season. He has been horrible since then. At some point the feel good story needs to be re-examined as to what we actually have.

Schneemann is in the same boat.

These are bit players, not starters, and need replaced next year.

Players always have ups and downs...

Also, last 14 days (aka pretty much since the all-star games) he is .314/.385/.400

Which as @Wham with the Right Hand pointed out plus Manning also pointed out... His patience and timing were off... He was swinging at pitches he wasn't earlier in the year...

Since that All-Star hit... I think he's settled down mentally which I think down the stretch we will see a solid player... Not the start of the season hot but not that getting out every AB stretch either...

When it comes to Schneeman... He has been adjusted too... This is the type of time that makes or breaks someone in the bigs... That adjustment back... Too soon to just throw him out...

 

[Wham with the Right Hand]

Looks like Hedges was just trying to make contact the first couple of months but finally gave up and decided to just take max swings so that if he accidently makes contact he'll do some damage.