2025 Season | Series #7 | Guardians @ Pirates | April 18-20, 2025

xmasbuck said:
sweeping the pirates in a 3 game series shouldn't be a big deal - doing it at their place gives you some style points - doing it when Skenes and Keller start two of the games is pretty impressive
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Yeah, Pirates do suck on offense too, but I thought Allen was legit pitching good. He's commanding the zone really well. If he pitches like this, it's hard to see us not being damn good this year.
 
godfather said:
Yeah, Pirates do suck on offense too, but I thought Allen was legit pitching good. He's commanding the zone really well. If he pitches like this, it's hard to see us not being damn good this year.
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I think he comes back to earth but should be more than offset if Gavin and bibee bounce back to pitch like they are capable of and then Bieber comes back
 
CBBI said:
You guys are missing the point. It's not about the pecking order.

It's about having 2 of the 8 bullpen options being guys that you won't even consider using with the lead in a close game.

It becomes quite easy to burn out what amounts to a 6 man bullpen when you play 3-4 close games in a row.
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Cantillo has thrown 11.1 innings.
Smith has 11.
Junis has 11.
Clase has 10.1.
Sewald has 9.2.
Gaddis has 8.2.
Herrin has 8.
TMac has 5.2.

Cantillo has the most IP of anybody in the pen.

The problem you present doesn't exist.
 
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Allen was absolutely horrid last year, so doubting what we see now is understandable. But a lot of folks forget that before last year, Allen was a very good prospect (top 100) who had a solid 125 IP MLB debut.
 
CATS44 said:
Cantillo has thrown 11.1 innings.
Smith has 11.
Junis has 11.
Clase has 10.1.
Sewald has 9.2.
Gaddis has 8.2.
Herrin has 8.
TMac has 5.2.

Cantillo has the most IP of anybody in the pen.

The problem you present doesn't exist.
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You are so intentionally obtuse :chuckle:

It's not about innings pitched or pecking order or anything like that. It's much more simple than all of that.

Before today - 20 games into the season mind you - Vogt had not used McKenzie *or* Cantillo in a game the Guardians were 0-3 runs ahead.

Last 4 Games Before Today's 10th Inning
Clase 45 pitches
Junis 43 pitches
Gaddis 39 pitches
Herrin 36 pitches
Smith 30 pitches
Sewald 26 pitches
Cantillo 0 pitches
McKenzie 0 pitches

If you have two guys in the bullpen that you absolutely will not use in a close game that you're winning, then all it takes is playing 3-4 of those close games in a row to absolutely burn through the other 6 guys.
 
Wrong thread.

Very nice series. Pirates offense is terrible, but results are results. Encouraging to see Manzo making some waves. Good vibes from Lively and LAJ. Arias looks like he could be sticking. Overall positive. I'll take .500 over a shit show any day.
 
CBBI said:
You are so intentionally obtuse :chuckle:

It's not about innings pitched or pecking order or anything like that. It's much more simple than all of that.

Before today - 20 games into the season mind you - Vogt had not used McKenzie *or* Cantillo in a game the Guardians were 0-3 runs ahead.

Last 4 Games Before Today's 10th Inning
Clase 45 pitches
Junis 43 pitches
Gaddis 39 pitches
Herrin 36 pitches
Smith 30 pitches
Sewald 26 pitches
Cantillo 0 pitches
McKenzie 0 pitches

If you have two guys in the bullpen that you absolutely will not use in a close game that you're winning, then all it takes is playing 3-4 of those close games in a row to absolutely burn through the other 6 guys.
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I'm not being obtuse.

There simply is not a problem in the way Vogt is using the pen...and today illustrates that your premise is false.

It was obviously a close game, being the tenth inning. Vogt could have used Smith. He could have used Herrin. But he didn't. He used Cantillo.

According to you, Vogt doesn't use Cantillo in big situations, only his go to guys.

Cantillo is not at the top of the pecking order...nor should he be...but Vogt isn't burning the pen in order not to use him.
 
godfather said:
Agree, I am a big Clase guy but after this, you got to make a decision. Either IL him or demote his role.

We have too many good arms, to allow him to just explode at our expense too. Not saying it has to be permanent, but short-term, something has to be done.

Teams are batting over .400 against him! He's not been struggling, he's been terrible.
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Absolutely amazing to see a guy go from an ERA <1 to an ERA of almost 8.
 
Wham with the Right Hand said:
Love the 14 hits, especially from guys who haven't been hitting like Bo, Lane Thomas, and Noel. Now if Nolan Jones could just get a couple of hits.
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Which Jones did subsequently!

But speaking of Friday night's 14 hits, for those listening, did either of Cleveland's broadcasting crews mention what the Pirate announcers did? Evidently coming into that evening's game Cleveland had the longest running streak in the major leagues--42 games!--of not getting at least a dozen hits.

The Pirate announcers also spent a lot of time talking about Skene's peripherals during the game on Saturday, and there was a note of worry in their discussion, particularly given the dramatically lower arm slot he's had this year compared to last, and they had the numbers to back it up.

So, as impressive as Cleveland's AB's were in that game, either last year's sensation has something going on in that arm of his, or the new angle of attack is some sort of purposeful change Skenes is working on for some reason. Regardless, can you imagine Cleveland's broadcasters having this kind of extended discussion, complete with all the analytical tools the Pittsburgh guys were using to describe Skene's comparative results year over year?

Someone in this thread called the Pirate announcer's "dull." Hardly. The team they broadcast is somewhat dull, perhaps, but they were complimentary of Cleveland the entire series, pointing out one aspect after another, little things and large, why Cleveland wins and Pittsburgh does not. And not one time were they snide toward us. Not once, even when the Pirates got frustratingly unlucky at times. Pure class.

Another thing, there seems to be this thinking that beating Pittsburgh is ho-hum, but they had just taken three of four from the Nationals, a team that had humbled the Dodgers before that. Any win is a good win, because baseball is so hard to control. Ask Clase. Every time the ball is hit off him these days it seems to carry the maximum amount of harm, no matter the quality of the contact.
 
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Also, regarding the team carrying both Cantillo and McKenzie despite neither being in the "Circle of Trust" and their impact on the viability of the bullpen long term, I think it's safe to say this isn't a long term thing. Trevor Stephan, Andrew Walters, and others loom, and if there was one good thing to come out of the 9th inning debacle today, it was the bear hug Hedges gave Cantillo after the 10th inning escape. That was a clutch save in a game that could have easily been a devastating loss in advance of a difficult homestand.

And the extra innings gave Manzardo another chance to shine, by lifting a tie-breaking fly ball to the outfield after being down two strikes. And the flawless execution required by Arias and Rocchio on the Oneil Cruz grounder. Did Cruz dog it out of the box? Yes he did, but then he turned on the jets and even one bobble by Arias, one hesitation anywhere along the line, one less mph from Rocchio on the throw and Cruz would have been safe and the subsequent fly ball Cantillo yielded would have tied the game again.
 
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CATS44 said:
I'm not being obtuse.

There simply is not a problem in the way Vogt is using the pen...and today illustrates that your premise is false.

It was obviously a close game, being the tenth inning. Vogt could have used Smith. He could have used Herrin. But he didn't. He used Cantillo.

According to you, Vogt doesn't use Cantillo in big situations, only his go to guys.

Cantillo is not at the top of the pecking order...nor should he be...but Vogt isn't burning the pen in order not to use him.
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Answer this one for me, genius. Why did Vogt not use Herrin or Smith instead of Cantillo in the final inning against Pittsburgh?

Because they were both unavailable from being overworked from the previous three days.

And why were those two overworked?

Because Vogt has two arms in his pen that he will not use in non garbage situations unless he’s left with literally no other choice.

When you only have 6 guys you’ll go with in close games, and you play a handful of close games in a row, that’s how you end up pitching Herrin and Clase 3 days in a row in April.

With 26-man rosters allowing 8-man bullpens, there’s basically never a scenario where any pitcher should have to go three days in a row in April for goodness sake. The Guardians had two guys do it this week.
 
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