2026 Off-season Thread

foucault87 said:
On Harden/Garland...im talking about the actual passes they make in the game. Yes Harden has a higher number of turnovers but look at what passes are actually being thrown on the court. Not what's in your spreadsheets. He is either the third or fourth best playmaker in the NBA right now.

Mobley - G4, G5 vs Det. G5 Tor. Nearly saved G6 tor. He was indisputably our best player these playoffs
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In Game 4, Mitchell scored 39 points in the second half and it wasn't terribly close in the 4th quarter. It was Mobley's best defensive game of the playoffs, and the 3 steals with 5 blocks mattered, but he only scored 17 points, the game wasn't in need of saving, and even if you want to argue that it was, the 39 points by Mitchell is what saved it.

In Game 5 Mobley had 8 assists, but he shot 46% from the field, had 4 turnovers, scored 19 points, and posted a -7 +/-. Allen scored 18 points, pulled down 10 rebounds, and was +14. Harden scored 30 points, had 6 assists, and was +11. I don't see how Mobley *saved* that game. It's not even clear he was the best Cavalier on the court for it.

Game 5 against the Raptors was probably his best game of the playoffs. He scored 19 points to go along with 9 rebounds and was -2 which is close to statistically neutral. Harden scored 23 points, had 9 rebounds, and was +10. I could see giving it to Mobley because James had 6 turnovers and only 5 assists which is a significant demerit in my book. The problem is that was also Schroeder's best game of the playoffs. He had an uber efficient 19 points in 10 fewer minutes than Mobley played and was +8. Merrill chipped in an uber efficient 9 points and was +18. Tyson, Wade, and Strus chipped in another 23 points and netted out positive. If you could give the game to the bench, its 50 points, and its net +, you would.

Mobley had some good games where he was a meaningful contributor, but I don't know that he saved any game this last playoff run. Instead of trying to make him a focal point of the offense where he's scoring 25 ppg, the Cavs would be better off if there were more defensive games like Game 4 against the Pistons. The Cavs would better off there were more Game 5s where he gets 8 assists as a secondary hub. I want to see the Even Mobley who puts all that together consistently.

Four assists and 2 blocks needs to be his floor. He's a solid, but not great secondary playmaker. If he gets better at it, teams will begin cheating towards passing lanes instead of driving lanes. If they don't cheat towards the passing lanes, there will be a ton of assist opportunities.

The only time he should fall below two blocks is because the other team simply refuses to shoot in his vicinity, but there were too many Kevin Love contests out there. There were too many games where he played the most minutes but never picked up a 4th foul. He needs to work on getting right up to the line of where a foul is, especially in the playoffs so that he can get away with going over it in the playoffs. Opposing players seem less and less bothered by his presence, especially as that Knicks series played out. His defense is a huge part of his on the court value and he can't let go of the rope.
 
Rich said:
But he's going to be a lot cheaper. THat's the trade off.

Meanwhile the Cavs would have been staring down the barrel of a Garland extension in which he's gonna ask for max years and money on it. Harden is gonna get 2 years at 30 million which is most likely gonna get the Cavs under the 2nd Apron.
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If cheaper is the goal, let Harden walk after he opts out. Schroder's the cheapest of the bunch.
 
m.flint2019 said:
Allen I think is a better rebounder than Evan and would get bullied less, but his offense isn't as dynamic and varied and neither is his passing. He's good for what he does, but in a playoff setting, he's not really elevating the floor of a team. Moving on from Allen is hard however, because there's not a trade out there that significantly boosts this frontcourt if you're pairing anyone with Mobley.

Perhaps the move is to slot Jaylon Tyson in SF and call it a day...
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If they trade Allen without getting a defending big who can shoot, the team will get worse. We won't be able to defend any of this big teams.
 
CavsKermit said:
In Game 4, Mitchell scored 39 points in the second half and it wasn't terribly close in the 4th quarter. It was Mobley's best defensive game of the playoffs, and the 3 steals with 5 blocks mattered, but he only scored 17 points, the game wasn't in need of saving, and even if you want to argue that it was, the 39 points by Mitchell is what saved it.

In Game 5 Mobley had 8 assists, but he shot 46% from the field, had 4 turnovers, scored 19 points, and posted a -7 +/-. Allen scored 18 points, pulled down 10 rebounds, and was +14. Harden scored 30 points, had 6 assists, and was +11. I don't see how Mobley *saved* that game. It's not even clear he was the best Cavalier on the court for it.

Game 5 against the Raptors was probably his best game of the playoffs. He scored 19 points to go along with 9 rebounds and was -2 which is close to statistically neutral. Harden scored 23 points, had 9 rebounds, and was +10. I could see giving it to Mobley because James had 6 turnovers and only 5 assists which is a significant demerit in my book. The problem is that was also Schroeder's best game of the playoffs. He had an uber efficient 19 points in 10 fewer minutes than Mobley played and was +8. Merrill chipped in an uber efficient 9 points and was +18. Tyson, Wade, and Strus chipped in another 23 points and netted out positive. If you could give the game to the bench, its 50 points, and its net +, you would.

Mobley had some good games where he was a meaningful contributor, but I don't know that he saved any game this last playoff run. Instead of trying to make him a focal point of the offense where he's scoring 25 ppg, the Cavs would be better off if there were more defensive games like Game 4 against the Pistons. The Cavs would better off there were more Game 5s where he gets 8 assists as a secondary hub. I want to see the Even Mobley who puts all that together consistently.

Four assists and 2 blocks needs to be his floor. He's a solid, but not great secondary playmaker. If he gets better at it, teams will begin cheating towards passing lanes instead of driving lanes. If they don't cheat towards the passing lanes, there will be a ton of assist opportunities.

The only time he should fall below two blocks is because the other team simply refuses to shoot in his vicinity, but there were too many Kevin Love contests out there. There were too many games where he played the most minutes but never picked up a 4th foul. He needs to work on getting right up to the line of where a foul is, especially in the playoffs so that he can get away with going over it in the playoffs. Opposing players seem less and less bothered by his presence, especially as that Knicks series played out. His defense is a huge part of his on the court value and he can't let go of the rope.
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Who do you think was our best player in the playoffs then? You can pick nits all you want but single game +/- is more meaningless than ppg without efficiency.

I do agree that Mobley is best right now as a playmaking hub, defensive anchor, and occasional spacer/play finisher. But none of that changes the fact the rest of the team consistently shit the bed. Or at least more consistently than Evan did.

The bigger thing for me was that Evan showed he can and will play with force and step up in the clutch. He hit so many critical 3s or drives when we were in white knuckle time. Unlike a certain pair of guards who kept throwing it to the other jerseys. Or our elite shooters who couldnt piss into the ocean. Or the other big who was benched because he was more worried about whether he hatched a perfect IV shiny Charmander than defending the rim or playing basketball.


Anyway, this is getting way off track now. The point is that 36 yo Harden was an upgrade over DG. Marginal maybe, but clearly a better player you cant just scheme off the floor. It is telling that teams didnt attack him relentlessly on D (other than Brunson), while DG has gotten abused by every wing this side of the Graham twins.
 
CavsKermit said:
Are you going to leave out the turnovers again?
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This isn’t a positive for Garland either my friend.

He’s got a whopping 2:1 assist to turnover ratio in postseason play for his career.

I’ll post the numbers so Rich doesn’t have to. Garland, the young all star, averages the following over 22 playoff contests, not counting play-in games (which aren’t good either).

17.3 points.
2.9 rebounds
5.5 assists
1 steal
0.1 blocks
2.7 turnovers
42.8 from the field
34.3 from 3
3.2 free throw attempts, converting at an 86% clip
54.4 true shooting

The guy was every bit the playoff disappointment over his Cavs tenure that Harden was as an old man this year, and he was even worse defensively.

For reference, Harden’s true shooting percentage this postseason was better than Garland’s in any of this 3 postseason runs. That’s nuts to me, but it’s true. As bad as we believe Harden was, he was a more efficient offensive player than Garland in his best playoffs.

And Harden played. And his team advanced.

I loved the aesthetics of Garland’s game. I loved watching him when he and the team were playing well.

He was hurt frequently, as bad defensively as any individual player in the league, and pouted when things didn’t go his way.

Looking at the package Trae Young fetched and the way nobody is willing to touch Ja Morant, I think Koby did well to trade talent for talent and get out of long term financial commitment.
 
Cavatt said:
If they trade Allen without getting a defending big who can shoot, the team will get worse. We won't be able to defend any of this big teams.
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If they trade Allen. I feel like Myles Turner should be a target. Yes his rebounding is atrocious. But defensively he is still elite and offensively he is the perfect C next to Mobley. And if Bucks deal Giannis. I feel like Turner would be available.
 
Cassity14 said:
This isn’t a positive for Garland either my friend.

He’s got a whopping 2:1 assist to turnover ratio in postseason play for his career.

I’ll post the numbers so Rich doesn’t have to. Garland, the young all star, averages the following over 22 playoff contests, not counting play-in games (which aren’t good either).

17.3 points.
2.9 rebounds
5.5 assists
1 steal
0.1 blocks
2.7 turnovers
42.8 from the field
34.3 from 3
3.2 free throw attempts, converting at an 86% clip
54.4 true shooting

The guy was every bit the playoff disappointment over his Cavs tenure that Harden was as an old man this year, and he was even worse defensively.

For reference, Harden’s true shooting percentage this postseason was better than Garland’s in any of this 3 postseason runs. That’s nuts to me, but it’s true. As bad as we believe Harden was, he was a more efficient offensive player than Garland in his best playoffs.

And Harden played. And his team advanced.

I loved the aesthetics of Garland’s game. I loved watching him when he and the team were playing well.

He was hurt frequently, as bad defensively as any individual player in the league, and pouted when things didn’t go his way.

Looking at the package Trae Young fetched and the way nobody is willing to touch Ja Morant, I think Koby did well to trade talent for talent and get out of long term financial commitment.
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Which Cavalier posted a 2:1 assist to turnover ratio this go around? That's a difficult to ratio to maintain against playoff caliber defenses.

As far as his net averages, three of those games he tried to play on one leg and this discussion is why agents tell their players not do that. Another three of those were played against the Celtics, with no Allen, no Mitchell, not even a LeVert, and no backup PG. He averaged over 40 mpg over the last three games and you could seem him run out of gas in the 4th. He was out there Mobley, who also played a ton of minutes, Strus, Morris (who was bought out that season), and Okoro who scored, not averaged, a total of 9 points across three games.

If people want to ignore the context for nearly a third of the games in a 22 game sample size, they are free to do so. I'll suggest to you that assuming that sample holds predictive value is foolish. In any event, that sample is not how the trade will ultimately be judged. We already saw the difference in how Mitchell was defended with Harden instead of Garland as his backcourt mate. I don't think that will get better over time.

The Cavs made the equivalent of a no pass line bet on Garland's health. If he struggles to stay healthy for the duration of his career, they'll be vindicated. If he does not, it could be a rough 7-8 years watching Garland in another uniform.
 
NMCav said:
If they trade Allen. I feel like Myles Turner should be a target. Yes his rebounding is atrocious. But defensively he is still elite and offensively he is the perfect C next to Mobley. And if Bucks deal Giannis. I feel like Turner would be available.
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Allen is so much better than Myles. He was awful last season.
 
foucault87 said:
Who do you think was our best player in the playoffs then? You can pick nits all you want but single game +/- is more meaningless than ppg without efficiency.

I do agree that Mobley is best right now as a playmaking hub, defensive anchor, and occasional spacer/play finisher. But none of that changes the fact the rest of the team consistently shit the bed. Or at least more consistently than Evan did.

The bigger thing for me was that Evan showed he can and will play with force and step up in the clutch. He hit so many critical 3s or drives when we were in white knuckle time. Unlike a certain pair of guards who kept throwing it to the other jerseys. Or our elite shooters who couldnt piss into the ocean. Or the other big who was benched because he was more worried about whether he hatched a perfect IV shiny Charmander than defending the rim or playing basketball.


Anyway, this is getting way off track now. The point is that 36 yo Harden was an upgrade over DG. Marginal maybe, but clearly a better player you cant just scheme off the floor. It is telling that teams didnt attack him relentlessly on D (other than Brunson), while DG has gotten abused by every wing this side of the Graham twins.
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I don't think the Cavs had a member of their core who was consistently their best player in any series or even across the playoffs. There was a lot of inconsistency. . Allen was unquestionably the best player in both Game 7s though.
 
And for someone who keeps posting the on/off numbers, Garland was negative in all 3 playoff runs. Something like -3.5 net rating, then over -4, and then in his last year -9.

Which is wild considering that last year the Cavs destroyed the Heat in the first round to still end up -9.

Meanwhile Harden actually just posted a + net rating, something Garland hasn't come close to doing in the playoffs.

So if you wanna harp on +/-, then swallow that down.
 
Garland only had one healthy playoff series. Trying to parce what he would of done healthy is impossible.
 
Rich said:
And for someone who keeps posting the on/off numbers, Garland was negative in all 3 playoff runs. Something like -3.5 net rating, then over -4, and then in his last year -9.

Which is wild considering that last year the Cavs destroyed the Heat in the first round to still end up -9.

Meanwhile Harden actually just posted a + net rating, something Garland hasn't come close to doing in the playoffs.

So if you wanna harp on +/-, then swallow that down.
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Garland netted out plenty positive against the Heat and was positive against the Celtics across the first two games.

Again, this discussion and bad faith analysis isn't how this trade will be ultimately be judged.
 
CavsKermit said:
Allen is so much better than Myles. He was awful last season.
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Allen is better then Myles. I wasn't suggesting Allen for Myles. But if the team moves on from Allen in a trade and needs a replacement. I would look at Myles. His Age 29 season for Bucks was similar to Brook Lopez age 29 season for Lakers before joining bucks. Bad team, not great results. Say Allen gets dealt for a wing. And Turner his last 2 playoff runs with Pacers played solidly. He doesn't shrink like Allen tends to do in bigger moments.
 
Cassity14 said:
Looking at the package Trae Young fetched and the way nobody is willing to touch Ja Morant, I think Koby did well to trade talent for talent and get out of long term financial commitment.
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This sentence here is the beginning and end of the argument on the Harden / Garland trade. A player is worth what the market dictates and the market has dictated that small, athletic guards do not have much value.
 
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