23 Offseason GM Thread

[sportscoach]

I'd sign off on any of those 3 deals.

I feel like we could really do that second one (id add another prospect in that deal)... It would give us bullpen help and gives us a power hitting OF to balance the contact approach that we currently have...

Plus I feel like on paper we could live without those three (Rosario is only here cause of intangibles over skillset, even you can admit that one)... With having the open roster spot for like a Viloria and then Bilous/best pitcher in camp getting the last spot.

 

[Gson]

@sportscoach ..

Looking at the first deal...

First deal...

Dodgers get:
SS Rosario
2B/LF Palacios
SP Plesac
Cash

Guardians get
LHRP Ferguson
SP Pepiot
SP/RP Frasso

Leave the cash off.. before the start of ST the Dodgers were attempting to reset their CBT. That's no longer the case as the Dodgers will be over the threshold and there's nothing they can do to prevent it at this point save for an outlandish Commish ruling..

Rosario.. fine.. there are plenty of candidates that may be able to approach his output.. but, it's not going to be easy.. nor should it be..

Palacios.. it's no secret.. he's shown me nothing... He swings hard in case he runs into one.. and has to be hidden on defense.. Whatever the Guardians can get for him.. fine.. Instead of hiding him in LF or as a DH.. he can be hidden as a cog in a trade..

Plesac.. Everyone knows why the Dodgers will want Plesac.. because he'll be extra cheap.. He's worth more as a tweener: SP/RP to the Guardians than his over inflated BTV value..

IMHO.. adding Angel Martinez or Peyton Battenfield or Konnor Pilkington to the deal might (only "might") persuade the Dodgers to take "P & P" along with Rosario..

All three guys coming from the Dodgers are worth consideration. Frasso should have the "SP" removed.. he's going to be a solid RP with back of the pen / high leverage ceiling.. Ryan Pepiot displaces Civale as the #4 SP.. He has that kind of ability.. Caleb Ferguson is a solid port sider out of the pen..no issues with him...

The second deal.. would be a pass.. & it's unfixable..

The third deal.. is DOA from the Cardinals perspective.. It's not all that much from the Guardians perspective but not terrible.. When two out of three teams in a proposed 3 team deal want to pass.. it's not likely to happen.. This one is that..

Go with door # 1, even with the addition from the Guardians.. and never look back...

 

[sportscoach]

@Gson

See I had cash to say may need to add something there, but I am hesitant to 100% trust the young arms to the 5th spot.

I actually feel the second would be the most realistic that both teams could accept. I'd rather have Outman than Tena + Palacios and Ferguson I feel makes sense for us out of the pen. Rosario from what I can tell isn't worth as much as BTV has him at...

We don't have the same ideas for running rosters but I'd pick two and the third was a throw crap on the wall to see if it sticks lol

Dodgers want LH hitters and Cardinals have extra and we have an extra SP in Plesac, so I was hoping to get in there and getting a max return for Plesac and possibly Rosario lol

 

[CATS44]

If the Dodgers want a left hand hitter and Outman is so good, why wouldn't they just keep Outman and play him in center?

*******

This entire org is built around intangibles.

 

[sportscoach]

If the Dodgers want a left hand hitter and Outman is so good, why wouldn't they just keep Outman and play him in center?

*******

This entire org is built around intangibles.

I actually don't think the Dodgers will make him available. He's just not rated highly, but had a monster year in 22 with his reworked swing...

 

[CDAV45]

I feel like we could really do that second one (id add another prospect in that deal)... It would give us bullpen help and gives us a power hitting OF to balance the contact approach that we currently have...

Plus I feel like on paper we could live without those three (Rosario is only here cause of intangibles over skillset, even you can admit that one)... With having the open roster spot for like a Viloria and then Bilous/best pitcher in camp getting the last spot.

That's not really why I think Rosario is here. I think he is here because he has a decent skillset and Arias, Freeman and Rocchio haven't had the opportunity to take it from him yet, but I believe it's coming very soon. Even then, there is no promise that they will perform better than Amed. Arias and Rocchio have the ability to be far superior to Amed on both sides of the ball though and at what point is it best to give them a real chance? This season or next?

One thing I do have to admit is that without the possibility of Naylor's offensive upside I have almost zero faith in the catching corps. Zunino is Kelly Shoppach 2.0 and I think expecting him to even come close to his 21 season is the epitome of a wing and a prayer. So right now we don't even know who will be catching and Straw hits like a pussy if he hits at all. The last 3 spots in the lineup are still not what I would call ideal by any means. We'll see what happens.

 

[CDAV45]

We're not getting Outman with Rosario. Amed's value is very close to zilch. The only way to get anything in return for him would be for Cleveland to pay a good portion(or all) of his remaining salary. Even then you're looking at a BP arm maybe or a lottery ticket.

The Dodgers don't need any LHH. The picked up Peralta, Zimmer and Heyward. They have Freeman. They have Busch. They have Outman. They have Muncy. They'll have Lux back next season. James Outman has some very loud tools and the Dodgers are going to let them play unless a major piece is coming in return. Amed doesn't qualify as a major piece.

 

[Gson]

That's not really why I think Rosario is here. I think he is here because he has a decent skillset and Arias, Freeman and Rocchio haven't had the opportunity to take it from him yet, but I believe it's coming very soon. Even then, there is no promise that they will perform better than Amed. Arias and Rocchio have the ability to be far superior to Amed on both sides of the ball though and at what point is it best to give them a real chance? This season or next?

One thing I do have to admit is that without the possibility of Naylor's offensive upside I have almost zero faith in the catching corps. Zunino is Kelly Shoppach 2.0 and I think expecting him to even come close to his 21 season is the epitome of a wing and a prayer. So right now we don't even know who will be catching and Straw hits like a pussy if he hits at all. The last 3 spots in the lineup are still not what I would call ideal by any means. We'll see what happens.

Most agree with this... two points:

-far superior on both sides of the ball = probably not.. Both Rocchio & Arias will be far superior defensively, that's a given.. far superior with the lumber.. I don't think so.. marginally better?.. maybe.. areas of output being better.. reasonable chance..

Zunino is a vet.. he's going to ease into the spot.. but the early returns are fugly.. he's got a swing that resembles a rusty gate.. It was nice to see Bo throw out a runner.. and get a knock.. The rest of the stiffs and below replacement player level backstops are just not stepping up to the challenge.. This is going to be a problem.. not that it wasn't before and after Zunino signed.. There still remains no absolute certainty that Zunino is going to be the starter.. as stated in an earlier posting..

Edit.. and that Outman / trade two posting remains unfixable and an easy pass.. it's a poorly constructed deal that makes zero sense..

 

[CDAV45]

Most agree with this... two points:

-far superior on both sides of the ball = probably not.. Both Rocchio & Arias will be far superior defensively, that's a given.. far superior with the lumber.. I don't think so.. marginally better?.. maybe.. areas of output being better.. reasonable chance..

Zunino is a vet.. he's going to ease into the spot.. but the early returns are fugly.. he's got a swing that resembles a rusty gate.. It was nice to see Bo throw out a runner.. and get a knock.. The rest of the stiffs and below replacement player level backstops are just not stepping up to the challenge.. This is going to be a problem.. not that it wasn't before and after Zunino signed.. There still remains no absolute certainty that Zunino is going to be the starter.. as stated in an earlier posting..

Edit.. and that Outman / trade two posting remains unfixable and an easy pass.. it's a poorly constructed deal that makes zero sense..

"Have the ability to be" doesn't mean they are yet. Arias has 30 HR potential and can carry a good average. Rocchio has 20 HR potential, the ability to get on base at a high rate and carry a good average. Both have the potential to be far superior with the bat than Amed has been IMO.

 

[Gson]

"Have the ability to be" doesn't mean they are yet. Arias has 30 HR potential and can carry a good average. Rocchio has 20 HR potential, the ability to get on base at a high rate and carry a good average. Both have the potential to be far superior with the bat than Amed has been IMO.

Yes.. "..have the..." same response.. Amed hits the ball.. always has.. anyone that can out hit him in a far superior way.. should begin being considered for Cooperstown...

 

[KluberSociety]

I don't think Arias is "far" superior with the glove than Amed. He probably has a better arm but Amed is probably going to make a few less errors and range might be edge Arias but I don't think he has him beat by a whole lot there either.

These "30 HR" fantasies are also not helpful, while he does have power he has not even come close to that in the smaller MiLB ballparks against much worse pitching.

Rosario well you get what you get with him, I don't expect anything to change much but the fact that he hits at about league average while playing shortstop not horrendously is enough to give him decent value.

IMO hard for Arias to beat because he's going to probably have to do it with the bat and based on some of the things I see, I just don't know what to expect there. Yeah he hits the ball hard and he has spurts where he seems to be locked in but how long can he do it? Good thing he's still young but I don't see the downside risk in letting him prove he has it first. Amed just isn't fetching much on the trade market or else he'd be gone by now.

Based on FG reports from winter ball, Rocchio's defense is trending in the wrong direction either so I don't think we can count on him to be a whiz there. Gimenez is the best defensive SS in the system probably and maybe it should be more about who can play 2B when we lose Rosario... Having the best defender play 2B and second best defender play SS seems like madness when both are under control for 3+ years.

 

[sportscoach]

I don't think Arias is "far" superior with the glove than Amed. He probably has a better arm but Amed is probably going to make a few less errors and range might be edge Arias but I don't think he has him beat by a whole lot there either.

These "30 HR" fantasies are also not helpful, while he does have power he has not even come close to that in the smaller MiLB ballparks against much worse pitching.

Rosario well you get what you get with him, I don't expect anything to change much but the fact that he hits at about league average while playing shortstop not horrendously is enough to give him decent value.

IMO hard for Arias to beat because he's going to probably have to do it with the bat and based on some of the things I see, I just don't know what to expect there. Yeah he hits the ball hard and he has spurts where he seems to be locked in but how long can he do it? Good thing he's still young but I don't see the downside risk in letting him prove he has it first. Amed just isn't fetching much on the trade market or else he'd be gone by now.

Based on FG reports from winter ball, Rocchio's defense is trending in the wrong direction either so I don't think we can count on him to be a whiz there. Gimenez is the best defensive SS in the system probably and maybe it should be more about who can play 2B when we lose Rosario... Having the best defender play 2B and second best defender play SS seems like madness when both are under control for 3+ years.

Stats say otherwise... They have Arias with way better range at SS while Amed makes less errors now, but it wasn't until last season that the range and errors finally got into something decent. I mean I am pretty sure in most categories Amed is towards the bottom at SS...

 

[CDAV45]

I don't think Arias is "far" superior with the glove than Amed. He probably has a better arm but Amed is probably going to make a few less errors and range might be edge Arias but I don't think he has him beat by a whole lot there either.

These "30 HR" fantasies are also not helpful, while he does have power he has not even come close to that in the smaller MiLB ballparks against much worse pitching.

Rosario well you get what you get with him, I don't expect anything to change much but the fact that he hits at about league average while playing shortstop not horrendously is enough to give him decent value.

IMO hard for Arias to beat because he's going to probably have to do it with the bat and based on some of the things I see, I just don't know what to expect there. Yeah he hits the ball hard and he has spurts where he seems to be locked in but how long can he do it? Good thing he's still young but I don't see the downside risk in letting him prove he has it first. Amed just isn't fetching much on the trade market or else he'd be gone by now.

Based on FG reports from winter ball, Rocchio's defense is trending in the wrong direction either so I don't think we can count on him to be a whiz there. Gimenez is the best defensive SS in the system probably and maybe it should be more about who can play 2B when we lose Rosario... Having the best defender play 2B and second best defender play SS seems like madness when both are under control for 3+ years.

Regardless of what you think, Arias is far superior defensively to Amed. Everyone knows this and it is popular thought that Arias could be the best defensive SS in Cleveland's system. Regardless if he is the best or not you're not going to go wrong playing any of Arias, Gimenez or Rocchio at SS. However it shakes out we will be good defensively at SS. You won't see me quibble over who is the SS between Gimenez, Arias and Rocchio.

30 HR potential for Arias isn't fantasy at all. The power potential is there to easily accomplish that. The question remains if he will hit enough. Also, 30 HR potential isn't the same as perennial 30 HR hitter to clarify.

I wouldn't give a warm bucket of piss for defensive metrics as a whole, but that's just me. They have no consistency whatsoever.

 

[CDAV45]

Yes.. "..have the..." same response.. Amed hits the ball.. always has.. anyone that can out hit him in a far superior way.. should begin being considered for Cooperstown...

It's a little deeper than that my friend. Superior to me doesn't mean having more hits. It means that the hits they do get are more productive. Knowing Amed had so many hits yet barely managed to carry an OPS+ over 100(106) should tell you everything you need to know. Being a superior hitter to Amed is a far cry from being considered for Cooperstown. Nice over the top though.

 

[KluberSociety]

Regardless of what you think, Arias is far superior defensively to Amed. Everyone knows this and it is popular thought that Arias could be the best defensive SS in Cleveland's system. Regardless if he is the best or not you're not going to go wrong playing any of Arias, Gimenez or Rocchio at SS. However it shakes out we will be good defensively at SS. You won't see me quibble over who is the SS between Gimenez, Arias and Rocchio.

30 HR potential for Arias isn't fantasy at all. The power potential is there to easily accomplish that. The question remains if he will hit enough. Also, 30 HR potential isn't the same as perennial 30 HR hitter to clarify.

I wouldn't give a warm bucket of piss for defensive metrics as a whole, but that's just me. They have no consistency whatsoever.

I hope you're right (about the "far superior"). I'm mainly going by eye test and the amount of reps he's getting at every position outside of SS. His defensive metrics weren't good in the limited amount of games but the sample size was crap so I'm not worried about that. He just doesn't appear to have the quickest side-to-side movement which is similar to Amed. He seems like the kind of player who would optimally be playing 3B, with his great arm. Also I think Amed should be a 3B so I'm sorry if I just don't see a whole lot of difference between them but I hope Arias proves me wrong there. So far count me unconvinced though.

Rocchio I just have what FG wrote, basically. I was under the impression that he was supposed to be the stronger defensive player so I see him a bit above Rosario but again we're talking about comparing these guys to MLB SS's which are the best fielders in the world so simply being good at defense doesn't get you that far and by that token Amed is actually pretty "good" at defense.

Gimenez to me is PROVEN to be an actually great defensive player, in a way that none of these other guys can probably hope to touch. Again hope I'm wrong here but I'm just not seeing any glowing reviews of their defense which would make me think they can touch his excellence with the glove.

TL;DR, with Gimenez in the infield, Amed and Arias are 3B, and Rocchio is a 2B, while Gimenez plays SS.