Baker Mayfield Gettin' funky on the field

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The Oi

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If I'm watching you parallel park every Sunday for years, and you started out learning to drive and sucked--but then yesterday you showed that you knew what you were doing, parked perfectly, but a car pulled out and hit you, I wouldn't claim you're a bad parallel parker. If someone else talked shit about you because of that situation and brought up your problems driving when you were 15, then I'd call them an idiot.

You have to make arguments based on what is happening in reality. Baker's stats from three years ago don't matter today--unless you feel he's the same player today as he was then.
I agree 100% that Baker seems to be a better QB than he used to be using the eye test. Prior to now he had shit coaches and a shit system. However…

But here’s what I see above:

when the Browns are trailing by one score or less, Mayfield is now 27 of 49 in his career for 367 yards, four touchdowns and five interceptions in the last four minutes of games, according to SportRadar’s advanced stats. Five interceptions in 12 games. That’s a quarterback rating of 66.8 with the game on the line. That’s simply not good enough.

You said that this doesn’t tell us what Baker is but rather what he was.

When does was become is in your mind? The guy hasn’t proven he’s anything different yet in the situation described, even though in the rest of the game we’re all seeing one hell of a QB.

I’m not here to be Colin Cowherd. I see Baker with Stef as a top 10 guy. But at this point, he hasn’t proven he’s any kind of late fourth quarter maven.
 

I'mWithDan

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I agree 100% that Baker seems to be a better QB than he used to be using the eye test. Prior to now he had shit coaches and a shit system. However…

But here’s what I see above:

when the Browns are trailing by one score or less, Mayfield is now 27 of 49 in his career for 367 yards, four touchdowns and five interceptions in the last four minutes of games, according to SportRadar’s advanced stats. Five interceptions in 12 games. That’s a quarterback rating of 66.8 with the game on the line. That’s simply not good enough.

You said that this doesn’t tell us what Baker is but rather what he was.

When does was become is in your mind? The guy hasn’t proven he’s anything different yet in the situation described, even though in the rest of the game we’re all seeing one hell of a QB.

I’m not here to be Colin Cowherd. I see Baker with Stef as a top 10 guy. But at this point, he hasn’t proven he’s any kind of late fourth quarter maven.

My view on Baker is still somewhere more in the middle........but I also understand he needs to be given a fair shake.

Playing from behind with a bad team and bad coaches isn't the same thing as what he has now.

He probably needs 10 opportunities with a coaching staff, offense and personnel that is good, before he is labeled something like "not clutch".

I've warmed a lot to Baker. He's not perfect but I also think his ability to come through probably isn't defined by what he was doing under Hue, Freddie, etc. with terrible everything around him either.
 

The Oi

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My view on Baker is still somewhere more in the middle........but I also understand he needs to be given a fair shake.

Playing from behind with a bad team and bad coaches isn't the same thing as what he has now.

He probably needs 10 opportunities with a coaching staff, offense and personnel that is good, before he is labeled something like "not clutch".

I've warmed a lot to Baker. He's not perfect but I also think his ability to come through probably isn't defined by what he was doing under Hue, Freddie, etc. with terrible everything around him either.
Definitely not saying he’s not clutch. He just hasn’t proven he’s Tom Brady.

Given his relationship with Stef, who appears to be an excellent coach, and his own leadership abilities and talent…I think he’ll be just fine.

The Browns are the rare team that can score late fourth quarter touchdowns rushing just as easily as passing. And they can score them from the 40. This means the kid can potentially game manage comebacks, which is huge considering he is capable of far more than a game manager.
 

Man Called X

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My view on Baker is still somewhere more in the middle........but I also understand he needs to be given a fair shake.

Playing from behind with a bad team and bad coaches isn't the same thing as what he has now.

He probably needs 10 opportunities with a coaching staff, offense and personnel that is good, before he is labeled something like "not clutch".

I've warmed a lot to Baker. He's not perfect but I also think his ability to come through probably isn't defined by what he was doing under Hue, Freddie, etc. with terrible everything around him either.
A lot of criticism for Baker has always been about his front running. He's great when he's ahead, but struggles with adversity coming from behind. Yesterday was no different. It's one of the "Is he the QB?" questions that need to be answered this year before we spend big money on him.
 

Los216

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A lot of criticism for Baker has always been about his front running. He's great when he's ahead, but struggles with adversity coming from behind. Yesterday was no different. It's one of the "Is he the QB?" questions that need to be answered this year before we spend big money on him.

He didn't answer some of those questions when he led us to the playoffs last year and won a playoff game?

He has to at least be past the "Is he the QB?" questions. The only questions should be how much we're going to pay him but in the grand scheme that's not as critical as people are making it out to be.

Whatever he ends up getting will likely be less than what the top 5 QB's are making and considering the circumstances that's okay.
 

Sharpner

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Of course not. Nothing is ever guaranteed. Josh Allen could tweak his ankle and be inaccurate all year. Shit happens. Lamar Jackson could get his leg amputated tomorrow--that doesn't mean he isn't the best running QB in the game today.

Pointing to old data and saying "That's what he is today" is only reasonable if variables haven't changed.


I don't think this is correct, at all. Josh Allen showed he is an accurate QB. He might not ever make another AFC Championship Game in his career--it doesn't change reality.

If you say it takes more time for the average person and the media narrative to change, then sure. LeBron carried around "he's unclutch" and "he's no Kobe. He lacks that killer instinct" for how many years, even while he was proving to be the most efficient fourth quarter player in the league year after year?
I think last year showed that Josh Allen can be an accurate QB, just like Baker's successful 4th quarter drives showed he can be clutch, but until it starts happening more often than not, I wouldn't say he is clutch yet or Allen is an accurate QB.
 

Man Called X

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He didn't answer some of those questions when he led us to the playoffs last year and won a playoff game?

He has to at least be past the "Is he the QB?" questions. The only questions should be how much we're going to pay him but in the grand scheme that's not as critical as people are making it out to be.

Whatever he ends up getting will likely be less than what the top 5 QB's are making and considering the circumstances that's okay.
As of right now, Baker Mayfield is not a QB that should be expected to pull out wins from behind in the 4th quarter. He can win you plenty of games, because he is a talented QB, and we've got a hell of a team around him. But as it stands, he's not swinging his nuts around like normal cocky Baker if he's behind. He presses and ultimately becomes a shitty a QB in those circumstances. This isn't opinion, it's fact backed up by stats.

This season Baker has to prove he can pull wins out of his ass. Otherwise, he's not the QB, he's the placeholder until we draft one.
 

Urban

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So many of those stats are from the disaster of a season that was 2019. I cannot pretend to give a shit about that season any more where the team fell apart at the seams when the scripted plays stopped.

Baker looked great in the second half of the season last year and continued to look great yesterday. Full steam ahead.
 

selby56

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Besides yesterday what were his most recent down by a score with under 4 minutes scenarios? Without looking it up I am going to assume it would go in order @Bengals last year, MNF vs Ravens last year, and @Jets last year. Two of those resulted in touchdown drives (only one resulted in a win, thanks to putrid defense) and the other resulted in a fumble, but that game was a complete shit show from the beginning anyway.

His track record is not bad if we are looking at some of his most recent outings.
 

Out of the Rafters at the Q

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I agree 100% that Baker seems to be a better QB than he used to be using the eye test. Prior to now he had shit coaches and a shit system. However…

But here’s what I see above:

when the Browns are trailing by one score or less, Mayfield is now 27 of 49 in his career for 367 yards, four touchdowns and five interceptions in the last four minutes of games, according to SportRadar’s advanced stats. Five interceptions in 12 games. That’s a quarterback rating of 66.8 with the game on the line. That’s simply not good enough.

You said that this doesn’t tell us what Baker is but rather what he was.

When does was become is in your mind? The guy hasn’t proven he’s anything different yet in the situation described, even though in the rest of the game we’re all seeing one hell of a QB.

I’m not here to be Colin Cowherd. I see Baker with Stef as a top 10 guy. But at this point, he hasn’t proven he’s any kind of late fourth quarter maven.
If someone wants to tell me Baker Mayfield is less than the QB we've seen over the past 10 or so games that he's played in a Cleveland Browns uniform, that person is wrong.

Just because he had struggles earlier in his career doesn't mean he hasn't made improvements.

There's no line where "Was" becomes "is." If someone watches this past game and thinks Mayfield is still the same QB with no pocket discipline, constantly flipping his hips and rolling out the back side, inconsistent accuracy issues overthrowing receivers, lapses in judgment where he doesn't read zone coverages sitting underneath routes, and everything else that we saw with him early, and we've seen him check off the list as he's grown and developed, I'm not sure what to say to those people. Either they are too uninformed about football to be having this conversation or they're being purposely disingenuous.
 

Out of the Rafters at the Q

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I think last year showed that Josh Allen can be an accurate QB, just like Baker's successful 4th quarter drives showed he can be clutch, but until it starts happening more often than not, I wouldn't say he is clutch yet or Allen is an accurate QB.
Cool. You're welcome to say whatever you want.

It's wrong, but you do you. If you need to see things happen for multiple years before you accept them as reality, you're always going to be a day late and a dollar short.

Josh Allen came into the leagues with poor mechanics and erratic accuracy woes. He changed his mechanics and that led to improved accuracy. That doesn't just magically become undone. It happened. It's real.
 

The Oi

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I don't understand your question.

If someone wants to tell me Baker Mayfield is less than the QB we've seen over the past 10 or so games that he's played in a Cleveland Browns uniform, that person is wrong.

Just because he had struggles earlier in his career doesn't mean he hasn't made improvements.

There's no line where "Was" becomes "is." If someone watches this past game and thinks Mayfield is still the same QB with no pocket discipline, constantly flipping his hips and rolling out the back side, inconsistent accuracy issues overthrowing receivers, lapses in judgment where he doesn't read zone coverages sitting underneath routes, and everything else that we saw with him early, and we've seen him check off the list as he's grown and developed, I'm not sure what to say to those people. Either they are too uninformed about football to be having this conversation or they're being purposely disingenuous.
Was becomes is because time exists. But then again, this isn’t a physics conversation.

Re-read the passage I posted and you’ll see why the rest of your post doesn’t quite acknowledge the point.

We’ve talked past each other here and you’ve resorted to weirdness.

Oi out!
 

macbdog

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Baker's game was like the 2016 Warriors- great for most of the game, then couldn't top the two man game of the reigning MVP and his sidekick and got exposed. The good news is, if they are following the same trajectory, Jadeveon Clowney should be recruiting Kevin Durant to join them by the end of the week.
 

Out of the Rafters at the Q

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Was becomes is because time exists. But then again, this isn’t a physics conversation.

Re-read the passage I posted and you’ll see why the rest of your post doesn’t quite acknowledge the point.

We’ve talked past each other here and you’ve resorted to weirdness.

Oi out!
When people use only historical stats to project what a player will do in the future, it's lazy and dumb. That's how you get people calling RB's good or bad based off YPC, or baseball pitchers good or bad based off wins.

There has to be analysis. You would have to point to things the player is doing wrong otherwise it's near worthless.

Of course, that takes effort. You can't just whip it out based off a box score--you'd have to watch the games, which takes time that some people don't want to put in.

Also your first line is wrong. "Is" becomes "was" unless we're traveling backwards through time.
 

Man Called X

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No, you have it backwards.

Josh Allen is an accurate QB.

He used to be an inaccurate QB who nobody could rely on to pass the ball.

If the current situation changes, so be it--but things are what they are.
Through one game, Josh Allen is now at a 58% completion percentage. So right in line with Josh Allen year 2, rather than almost 70% Josh Allen from last year. So if Josh Allen continues to have more games at that 58% completion percentage, does the narrative become that he's an accurate QB that had a down year, or would it be more in line with his super accuracy being an outlier?

You can't declaratively say that Josh Allen has become an accurate QB after one good year, regardless of how much he changed mechanics. The narrative changes as time passes and more evidence is presented.

You never anoint players after one good year.
 

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