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Baker Mayfield: Fire The Cannons

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2 For The Brew said:
Where would you put Nick Foles on that list?
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Proven Superbowl winner like Foles, has to be a top tier QB. :chuckle:

this conversation really goes to show that once you get past about the top 5 QBs the next 10-12 QBs are just in one big mashed up pot and any given year that QB may be higher on that list or lower on that list.
 
thestatman said:
Your agenda is pretty clear. You are in a very small minority of Browns fans that hate Baker Mayfield. You are the one that cherry picked negative things, not me. All I did was point out to you how ludicrous your posting was by showing the other side of the equation which you have absolutely no interest in acknowledging.

Mayfield's offense amassed 500 yards on Sunday and they did so without a turnover. Oh yeah. and the team scored 42 points. So let's all bash him because some asshole with an agenda by the name of Burns says...blah. blah, blah.

The fact is this team would be 5-0 if the punter doesn't drop a snap and the officials don't make a horrendous PI call. 5-0. And if they were 5-0 you would still be bitching about our quarterback.

Bellyache all you want. I'm loving what I'm seeing.
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Why do you think I hate Baker Mayfield? Because I am making an assessment with my eyes as he plays? And comparing his stats in key situations (like 3rd downs) to his draft peers? Like Josh Allen? Lamar Jackson? Etc.?

Bellyache is probably a good word for what is happening. If you go back through all these pages, which side is posting things? And gathering data? And trying to present a case that is less subjective?

All the Mayfield thread has been for his supporters is "Look at this really small sample of games, this window in time where he played well, see! He's good!". When a few of us are saying that that string of 8-10 games is maybe not representative of the reality to this point.

That doesn't mean I hate Baker Mayfield.......if you go back, even through the last few pages, there is both positive and not so positive data posted about him. And then, because everyone always (to use your word) bellyaches about the data but rarely digs anything up to refute it, we end up with posts like yours above. That are just the same platitudes.

There are a lot of things to like about Baker as a QB. His accuracy, his toughness, his attitude. He seems very like-able as a player and person. But he just isn't getting it done in situations where good or great QB's get it done......on 3rd down and late in games. I very much want Baker to succeed.........it would be the best thing for the franchise and also the fan base, to see a long term marriage between a guy we took #1 overall. But I am not really signing up to drive that bus off a cliff, at all costs. The roster is too good to try to wait on a single player to figure it out. If that makes me "hate" him, in your eyes, then we likely are not capable of having a meaningful discussion about him.
 
bob2the2nd said:
Proven Superbowl winner like Foles, has to be a top tier QB. :chuckle:
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You can certainly win a Super Bowl with a lesser QB, assuming that lesser QB has an out of body experience.

2018 - Nick Foles, 115.7 playoff rating, 6 TD, 1 INT
2012 - Joe Flacco, 117.2 playoff rating, 11 TD, 0 INT

As well all know, these are not indicative of how their careers went. So can you catch lightening in a bottle? You can.......but using this as proof or an actual stance to take when making a QB decision seems kind of silly to me.

The list of QB's to win the last 20 super bowls:

Tom Brady (HOF)
Patrick Mahomes (HOF)
Tom Brady (HOF)
Nick Foles
Tom Brady (HOF)
Peyton Manning (HOF)
Tom Brady (HOF)
Russell Wilson (HOF)
Joe Flacco
Eli Manning (likely HOF)
Aaron Rodgers (HOF)
Drew Brees (HOF)
Big Ben (HOF)
Eli Manning (HOF)
Big Ben (HOF)
Peyton Manning (HOF)
Big Ben (HOF)
Tom Brady (HOF)
Tom Brady (HOF)
Brad Johnson

So that works out to.....

85% of the time, a Super Bowl in the last 20, was won by a QB that will be in the Hall of Fame

Because I know how all of your minds operate.....

75% of the time, a Super Bowl in the last 20, was won a QB that will be in the Hall of Fame, not named Eli Manning

2007 - Eli Manning, 95.7 playoff rating, 6 TD, 1 INT
2011 - Eli Manning, 103.3 playoff rating, 9 TD, 1 INT

This is kind of like the Detroit Pistons argument in basketball though.......where it is technically possible to build a title team without a franchise player, it just isn't very probable at all.

We are also effectively entering or have entered a period of time like the early Brady 2000's, with the quality of young QB play. A stretch that saw 10 straight Super Bowl winners featuring a player that will be in Canton one day. 14 of 15 leading up to Foles.

I think that is all anyone is trying to point out. That more times than not, you need either an elite QB when you have a crack at a Super bowl or a QB who plays like one for a stretch of 4-5 playoff games. So maybe enough of you view Mayfield as the latter and it is unlikely we can improve at the position, which is possible.
 
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I'mWithDan said:
You can certainly win a Super Bowl with a lesser QB, assuming that lesser QB has an out of body experience.

2018 - Nick Foles, 115.7 playoff rating, 6 TD, 1 INT
2012 - Joe Flacco, 117.2 playoff rating, 11 TD, 0 INT

As well all know, these are not indicative of how their careers went. So can you catch lightening in a bottle? You can.......but using this as proof or an actual stance to take when making a QB decision seems kind of silly to me.

The list of QB's to win the last 20 super bowls:

Tom Brady (HOF)
Patrick Mahomes (HOF)
Tom Brady (HOF)
Nick Foles
Tom Brady (HOF)
Peyton Manning (HOF)
Tom Brady (HOF)
Russell Wilson (HOF)
Joe Flacco
Eli Manning (likely HOF)
Aaron Rodgers (HOF)
Drew Brees (HOF)
Big Ben (HOF)
Eli Manning (HOF)
Big Ben (HOF)
Peyton Manning (HOF)
Big Ben (HOF)
Tom Brady (HOF)
Tom Brady (HOF)
Brad Johnson

So that works out to.....

85% of the time, a Super Bowl in the last 20, was won by a QB that will be in the Hall of Fame

Because I know how all of your minds operate.....

75% of the time, a Super Bowl in the last 20, was won a QB that will be in the Hall of Fame, not named Eli Manning

2007 - Eli Manning, 95.7 playoff rating, 6 TD, 1 INT
2011 - Eli Manning, 103.3 playoff rating, 9 TD, 1 INT

This is kind of like the Detroit Pistons argument in basketball though.......where it is technically possible to build a title team without a franchise player, it just isn't very probable at all.

We are also effectively entering or have entered a period of time like the early Brady 2000's, with the quality of young QB play. A stretch that saw 10 straight Super Bowl winners featuring a player that will be in Canton one day. 14 of 15 leading up to Foles.

I think that is all anyone is trying to point out. That more times than not, you need either an elite QB when you have a crack at a Super bowl or a QB who plays like one for a stretch of 4-5 playoff games. So maybe enough of you view Mayfield as the latter and it is unlikely we can improve at the position, which is possible.
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You missed the joke.

But yes I agree, QBs that win superbowls are much more likely to get inducted into the HOF.
 
CBBI said:
You call yourself thestatman, eh?

I’m skeptical.
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People like Clowney, J. Johnson, Troy Hill, the 2 Maliks come to Cleveland as free agents. Really good free agent signings. Why? It's because of this team can absolutely win a title with Mayfield. That's why. Mayfield his entire career has beaten the odds. I wouldn't be surprised if he demands a trade out of this ungrateful city.

And when that happens, good luck trying to win a Super Bowl when the Browns draft another Kizer, Weeden Quinn, or Charlie fucking Frye.

This town should be rallying around this team and their quarterback. Not ripping him a new one like you do every single fricking week.

And yes, I call myself statman because I base my opinions strictly on numbers and not bullshit fluff that others do. Mayfield's numbers has been the best I've seen in this city in over 30 years.
 
thestatman said:
And yes, I call myself statman because I base my opinions strictly on numbers and not bullshit fluff that others do.
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thestatman said:
People like Clowney, J. Johnson, Troy Hill, the 2 Maliks come to Cleveland as free agents. Really good free agent signings. Why? It's because of this team can absolutely win a title with Mayfield. That's why. Mayfield his entire career has beaten the odds. I wouldn't be surprised if he demands a trade out of this ungrateful city.

And when that happens, good luck trying to win a Super Bowl when the Browns draft another Kizer, Weeden Quinn, or Charlie fucking Frye.

This town should be rallying around this team and their quarterback. Not ripping him a new one like you do every single fricking week.

And yes, I call myself statman because I base my opinions strictly on numbers and not bullshit fluff that others do. Mayfield's numbers has been the best I've seen in this city in over 30 years.
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While I would deem Baker to absolutely, unequivocally be the best QB the Browns have had in a very long time, it is rather annoying (I struggle to find a better word) that this is looked at as some universal reason as to why we should all be "Team Baker", as you might describe it.

The list you speak of is this:

QB rating leaders, last 30 years, min 10 games.

1. Baker Mayfield (51 games) - 89.8
2. Cody Kessler (12 Games) - 87.4
3. Josh McCown (13 Games) - 85.7
4. Kelly Holcomb (19 games) - 83.3
5. Vinny Testeverde (37 Games) - 80.9

So while we all want to rally around Baker, for a team trying to win a super bowl, we all probably want there to be a little more separation here or no? :chuckle:

I am grateful that Baker has helped us become more competitive. Maybe in the way Patriots fans are grateful that Bledsoe did. Most of us are just trying to engage in a discussion if we think Baker is someone like Bledsoe or if maybe he ascends to a higher tier, where year in and year out, he can be counted on to lead a team that is ready to win everything.

Again, is Baker BAD overall? No. Is he not great (I won't even use bad to avoid this side definition rabbit hole) in key situational metrics like 3rd downs, late in games, etc? I mean, yeah, he's not great. Will he be not great forever? Maybe he won't.......but the clock is really ticking on him now. He's in his 4th year and we are watching QB's from his draft year ascend to MVP levels........when this happens, it is the nature of the sport for the guy that went #1 overall in that draft to start feeling some external pressure. Is that not fair to you?
 
Vee-Rex said:
I'd argue that the interpretation and exaggeration to specific and concentrated parts of the data, as well as the overreaction to small sample sizes (2021) is the issue.

I tried to bring that particular discussion to a fair conclusion because the arguments became circular and pointless, and when smacked with basic logic we had SOME PEOPLE moving goalposts faster than kids move pokemon cards.

Now if you still got some juice and wanna slug it out about Baker then fine, but this really isn't the thread to do that in.
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@I'mWithDan and others have provided an extensive analysis on his numbers outside of just this season though. The specific and concentrated data is what is needed for accurately assessing results and making judgements.

He and others have given you a wholistic perspective on the data with comparison to Baker's peers. Accounting for a variety of situations, situations that are relevant to the current discussion and point to trends that appear to be precursors to his current struggles.

These are the posts that are the most tiresome. Lets forget about Baker for a moment. Do statistics resonate with you? If someone makes an argument that x behaves in a certain way under specific conditions based off 4 years of data is it a reactionary take?
 
This thread is a road that is constantly under construction, except it’s been completed 3-4 times and the crew keeps unpaving it and repaving it again and the constantly smoking flag wavers are never using “stop” signs, just “slow” and nobody gives a shit.
 
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