Biden Time: A Joe Biden Thread

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jking948

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Biden can get in people's faces, tell them their full of shit, and threaten to slap them. And somehow, Sanders is the one that is constantly painted as too aggressive or divisive. This is arguably not even Biden's most aggressive behavior toward regular people on the campaign trail.

I think this kind of stuff will play poorly in the general and give Trump the ability to both sides his own behavior. I hope the primary isn't over after tonight because we could really use a better nominee than Joe Biden.
Even as a proud Biden supporter and someone that hates guns, this should not be considered acceptable behavior.
 

ACisKING

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Maybe on the debate stage, but Biden has clearly been more aggressive when dealing with real people.

And hey, if you enjoy Biden's "fire" in the clip or just prefer his platform, that's your prerogative. I just find it annoying that Sanders and his supporters are treated as toxic or aggressive when every candidate has shitty online people and Bernie, neither in personality nor platform, is nearly as aggressive or cruel as the rest of the field was.
To be fair Bernie’s campaign has shifted to an all out attack on Biden ever since Super Tuesday. It started with Bernie’s speech on Super Tuesday. Then the Bernie-aligned segment of the media and his supporters online started really going after Biden’s alleged mental deficiencies. Social media has been flooded with Biden’s 7 minute campaign speech (which conveniently ignored the 20-plus minute speeches he made soon after that at subsequent rallies). His supporters have been brutal to Elizabeth Warren and now even to AOC for just making a positive comment on Warren’s video. His surrogates are also doing the whole “everything is rigged against us thing” again. And Bernie himself has spent plenty of time attacking the Democratic Party since Nevada (a tactical error when he should have been trying to broaden his coalition), which in and if itself comes across as negative to a lot of Democratic voters.

Not all of that is Bernie’s fault. He certainly can’t control his supporters’ actions online. And politics is always going to be a dirty business. But I can tell you that as someone who has no rooting interest here but just wants a Democrat to beat Trump, the vibe from Bernie’s campaign and his supporters has been more than negative enough, especially as things have swung against him.
 

-Akronite-

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To be fair Bernie’s campaign has shifted to an all out attack on Biden ever since Super Tuesday. It started with Bernie’s speech on Super Tuesday. Then the Bernie-aligned segment of the media and his supporters online started really going after Biden’s alleged mental deficiencies. Social media has been flooded with Biden’s 7 minute campaign speech (which conveniently ignored the 20-plus minute speeches he made soon after that at subsequent rallies). His supporters have been brutal to Elizabeth Warren and now even to AOC for just making a positive comment on Warren’s video. His surrogates are also doing the whole “everything is rigged against us thing” again. And Bernie himself has spent plenty of time attacking the Democratic Party since Nevada (a tactical error when he should have been trying to broaden his coalition), which in and if itself comes across as negative to a lot of Democratic voters.

Not all of that is Bernie’s fault. He certainly can’t control his supporters’ actions online. And politics is always going to be a dirty business. But I can tell you that as someone who has no rooting interest here but just wants a Democrat to beat Trump, the vibe from Bernie’s campaign and his supporters has been more than negative enough, especially as things have swung against him.
In terms of supporters, I agree that a good number of Sanders fans, especially online, go too far. I'd also argue that the Bernie Bro label has been overused and blow out of proportion while every other campaign got a pass. "Brutal" is a harsh word for some Tweets by voters, but it does bother me when people go straight to the rigged stuff, even given what happened in 2016.

In terms of the campaigns, Biden has been negative too and it's politics, as you said. Sanders could go so much further in attacking Biden, as evidenced by those of his supporters that do "go there." I feel like pre-conceived notions, as determined by the media, paint everything the Sanders camp does as toxic, and the scrutiny isn't at the same level for Biden.

In terms of the candidates, I think Bernie has gotten a raw deal. He directs his anger at the people in power and he gets labeled as a crotchety old man. Many people consider him to be too angry or toxic to vote for, but many of those same people will support Biden, give him a pass for his bad personal behavior, and even laud the way he cursed at a union worker. Bernie personally spends very little time attacking his opponents. When he talks about Biden, he makes the case that his record will be bad in the general, but he doesn't go much further in attacking Joe. Joe just today I think compared Bernie to Trump. Warren and her campaign spent much more energy attacking/hurting Bernie than he ever did to them, but you only ever hear about Snake emojis.

Ultimately, Bernie and his campaign aren't innocent, I just feel there is a clear double standard.
 

jking948

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In terms of supporters, I agree that a good number of Sanders fans, especially online, go too far. I'd also argue that the Bernie Bro label has been overused and blow out of proportion while every other campaign got a pass. "Brutal" is a harsh word for some Tweets by voters, but it does bother me when people go straight to the rigged stuff, even given what happened in 2016.

In terms of the campaigns, Biden has been negative too and it's politics, as you said. Sanders could go so much further in attacking Biden, as evidenced by those of his supporters that do "go there." I feel like pre-conceived notions, as determined by the media, paint everything the Sanders camp does as toxic, and the scrutiny isn't at the same level for Biden.

In terms of the candidates, I think Bernie has gotten a raw deal. He directs his anger at the people in power and he gets labeled as a crotchety old man. Many people consider him to be too angry or toxic to vote for, but many of those same people will support Biden, give him a pass for his bad personal behavior, and even laud the way he cursed at a union worker. Bernie personally spends very little time attacking his opponents. When he talks about Biden, he makes the case that his record will be bad in the general, but he doesn't go much further in attacking Joe. Joe just today I think compared Bernie to Trump. Warren and her campaign spent much more energy attacking/hurting Bernie than he ever did to them, but you only ever hear about Snake emojis.

Ultimately, Bernie and his campaign aren't innocent, I just feel there is a clear double standard.
FYI - I agree that Bernie gets a harder time for his gaffes, supporters, etc. than Biden. I also think Warren got a harder time for literally everything than any other candidate.

The reason I believe that Bernie gets a hard time from long-time Democrats is his noncompliance with a lot of the party’s position. Fair or not, it lets the Party paint him as an insurgent, and that riles-up opponents of the movement.

I also do believe Bernie is running an insurgent campaign, which in my mind, is something he had to do and I do not believe is bad. But what most academic literature suggests is, cross-country, insurgent candidates need to develop support from people within the party they are trying to takeover and/or create a movement that can rival the party itself. In the US, because of the two-party system, the latter option is incredibly difficult. Bernie’s failing has been his inability to win support from a large enough wing of Democratic Party politicians that he could rival Joe’s rhetoric.
 

Benway

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As a person who Likes guns, I was a bit taken aback by the vehemence of his response.
Perhaps it was calculated? Thinking that gun owning citizens might find this "plain talk" more "relatable"?
 

-Akronite-

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Bernie’s failing has been his inability to win support from a large enough wing of Democratic Party politicians that he could rival Joe’s rhetoric.
This is it, at the end of the day. It’s hard to say what factors played the biggest role: the priority of beating Trump, perceptions of the candidates/campaigns, aversion to more progressive ideas, etc.

A lot of people, myself included, have talked about coalition building. But what is that? I mean, Biden didn’t really build a coalition, he was the most popular name and the clear front runner when he entered the race, and after over performing in South Carolina the moderates lined up behind him. So where was the “building” part? Seems mostly like the Democratic Primary electorate is just majority moderate and/or too afraid of Trump to vote further left. Unless we are surprised tonight, Bernie was not able to overcome it, but could he have? Is he the guy that could get that done?

I think some issues, like baggage from 2016, his inability to be fake nice, the heart attack, all played their roles as well in hurting Bernie as a candidate, but many of his policies, including Medicare For All, are popular in the party. I’m interested in seeing how the progressive wing can improve on their image andor shift the national dialogue to being more policy oriented. And while I don’t want to wait for AOC to be old enough, we do need more youthful leaders in our wing.
 

jking948

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This is it, at the end of the day. It’s hard to say what factors played the biggest role: the priority of beating Trump, perceptions of the candidates/campaigns, aversion to more progressive ideas, etc.

A lot of people, myself included, have talked about coalition building. But what is that? I mean, Biden didn’t really build a coalition, he was the most popular name and the clear front runner when he entered the race, and after over performing in South Carolina the moderates lined up behind him. So where was the “building” part? Seems mostly like the Democratic Primary electorate is just majority moderate and/or too afraid of Trump to vote further left. Unless we are surprised tonight, Bernie was not able to overcome it, but could he have? Is he the guy that could get that done?

I think some issues, like baggage from 2016, his inability to be fake nice, the heart attack, all played their roles as well in hurting Bernie as a candidate, but many of his policies, including Medicare For All, are popular in the party. I’m interested in seeing how the progressive wing can improve on their image andor shift the national dialogue to being more policy oriented. And while I don’t want to wait for AOC to be old enough, we do need more youthful leaders in our wing.
Agreed on all fronts. Great post.
 

King Stannis

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This is it, at the end of the day. It’s hard to say what factors played the biggest role: the priority of beating Trump, perceptions of the candidates/campaigns, aversion to more progressive ideas, etc.

A lot of people, myself included, have talked about coalition building. But what is that? I mean, Biden didn’t really build a coalition, he was the most popular name and the clear front runner when he entered the race, and after over performing in South Carolina the moderates lined up behind him. So where was the “building” part? Seems mostly like the Democratic Primary electorate is just majority moderate and/or too afraid of Trump to vote further left. Unless we are surprised tonight, Bernie was not able to overcome it, but could he have? Is he the guy that could get that done?

I think some issues, like baggage from 2016, his inability to be fake nice, the heart attack, all played their roles as well in hurting Bernie as a candidate, but many of his policies, including Medicare For All, are popular in the party. I’m interested in seeing how the progressive wing can improve on their image andor shift the national dialogue to being more policy oriented. And while I don’t want to wait for AOC to be old enough, we do need more youthful leaders in our wing.
I think we'll see some of the progressive agenda in the platform moving forward.

And, you are spot on about leadership.

The moderates have Pete to look forward to as a possible POTUS for the next 40 years.

Any other young progressives we should be keeping an eye on?
 

Out of the Rafters at the Q

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Maybe on the debate stage, but Biden has clearly been more aggressive when dealing with real people.

And hey, if you enjoy Biden's "fire" in the clip or just prefer his platform, that's your prerogative. I just find it annoying that Sanders and his supporters are treated as toxic or aggressive when every candidate has shitty online people and Bernie, neither in personality nor platform, is nearly as aggressive or cruel as the rest of the field was.
You know where I stand on these two candidates.

Bernie just comes off as a more aggressive tone.

It shouldn't matter. But humans are emotional animals, and it does.

Edit: just realized this was a full page behind the discussion. Whoops.
 

King Stannis

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Even as a proud Biden supporter and someone that hates guns, this should not be considered acceptable behavior.
If people are wondering why this behavior has been getting praise, it is because of the Sleepy Joe thing.

Him getting ornery is sometime that dispels the Trump myth.

Even if it was a little much.
 

-Akronite-

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I think we'll see some of the progressive agenda in the platform moving forward.

And, you are spot on about leadership.

The moderates have Pete to look forward to as a possible POTUS for the next 40 years.

Any other young progressives we should be keeping an eye on?
In terms of future (2024) presidential contenders, not certain off the top of my head. I am a fan of the Squad members (even if I hate that fucking name) and that group will grow. This wave of the movement is still pretty new, so there are going to be lots of new names in coming years. I could see Warren giving it another go if Biden loses or only stays one term, but I'm personally disappointed that she abandoned the progressive cause in this primary and have a hard time seeing her carrying that banner going forward.

I'm very curious to see whether Shahid Buttar can successfully challenge Pelosi. Even in a primary loss, I think we see more of him down the line.

The right has worked hard to make sure Ilhan Omar, AOC, and the rest were branded out of the gate. They are fresh voices in our government fighting for values that are always sidelined for convenience, and as soon as they became public figures they went all out in trying to destroy Omar's reputation and paint AOC as a know-nothing. They could both be in federal government for decades in spite of this, but they've done the leg work to keep them as labeled as radical, polarizing, and/or divisive.

Also, the shift toward the left among the voters may lead to some younger voices shifting. Pete feels like an opportunist, so he may adopt more progressive policies when it could help him. Additionally, people like Beto seem open to more progressive ideas in a lot of arenas, but stuck by Party leadership for now.

@-Akronite- and other Bernie supporters, do you still want to stay in the race? I guess my bigger question is what does Bernie’s movement more damage: leaving the race too early or staying and potentially getting embarrassed? That movement is important so, to me if I were part of it, the best choice is the one that preserves it.
I have a hard time believing Bernie can make a comeback, but it's not so one-sided as to be worthy of a dropout already. My feeling is stay through the next debate, if you don't shift anything after going one on one with Biden, then start working on your exit strategy and see how we can maximize what was built.
 

Willard513

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A couple of things would have to lineup but assuming Biden chooses a female/more progressive VP, and is a 1 term president, that Vice President has a strong chance to perform and win in 2024.

Think Kamala Harris or Stacey abrams. They are the next generation of politicians before my generation(I’m 26 for reference) and they would have popularity from being VP among different communities that democrats need to win.

Wouldn’t be surprised to see the VP become a springboard position for democrats running for office in the future.
 

jking948

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A couple of things would have to lineup but assuming Biden chooses a female/more progressive VP, and is a 1 term president, that Vice President has a strong chance to perform and win in 2024.

Think Kamala Harris or Stacey abrams. They are the next generation of politicians before my generation(I’m 26 for reference) and they would have popularity from being VP among different communities that democrats need to win.

Wouldn’t be surprised to see the VP become a springboard position for democrats running for office in the future.
My concern is that Kamala is wildly unpopular for a future Presidential candidate and Abrams is very unexperienced.

Kamala was my preferred choice when these primaries started and I would vote for her ahead of Biden. Abrams is amazing and would move the party further left. I just am unsure that either of them are the best choice to be the Democratic nominee in 2024.
 

-Akronite-

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My concern is that Kamala is wildly unpopular for a future Presidential candidate and Abrams is very unexperienced.

Kamala was my preferred choice when these primaries started and I would vote for her ahead of Biden. Abrams is amazing and would move the party further left. I just am unsure that either of them are the best choice to be the Democratic nominee in 2024.
Warren is easily the best option if we are grooming the VP to take over for Biden in 4 years. Unfortunately, we have to win a race first and I don't know if she's the best option for that (we also don't know that she'd be a bad one, given her appeal to progressives).

Outside of her voting rights advocacy, I don't know Abrams political positioning very well. I do share the concern of her inexperience for a potential 2024 run. Her biggest race so far was a gubernatorial loss.
 

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