Car Advice

inliner311

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I don't think you understand the topic.

The current battery tech is rated for about 10% degradation after 1000 full charge cycles. Since it's incredibly rare to hit a full charge cycle, this number is realistically doubled to 2,000 half-cycles (Anything above 30% is considered a half-cycle).

2,000 charges gets you close to that 8-year warranty that Tesla offers. With progressive degradation, you're probably still going to have a car that's at least 80% of its original battery capacity 15+ years into ownership.

Also, instead of taking my hypothetical breakdown, here's some actual data from 286 model S owners: https://electrek.co/2016/11/01/tesla-battery-degradation/

For the people saying "a battery" costs $5k+, your terminology is really off. The Model S contains 7,104 individual batteries. That $5k+ cost is the price to replace the entire battery pack.

With fewer moving parts and lower cost of maintenance, there's no reason for a modern electric vehicle to not hold its value well past where a traditional combustion engine would be scrapped.

Also, we're nearing more major breakthroughs in battery technology. There are a lot of companies out there doing some pretty cool things, like batteries configured so that you can drain the reduced charge fluids from a lithium-ion battery and replace it with new fluids. Boom, back to 100% of your initial battery life.

The downsides right now would be the cost of production for the electric vehicle. It's not cheap and it's not environmentally friendly to produce. But once you get past those two, I think the only obstacle left is the American fear of miles per charge.
I understand that it's cells but look at the price of a Prius that has a bad battery code. The dealer wouldn't sell you a cell, you have to buy a whole battery. It's a DYI and not to many mechanics will go thru the trouble to replace a single cell. Overtime it's not cost effective to change out cells on a individual bases because of the labor cost. Right now the only source of cells is to take them from used batteries.

I also understand that they are trying to replace the fluids on batteries like just filling gas. I also know there is alot of other technology being worked on and electric cars might not be the total solution to transportation in the future. It's why car manufacturers are still making hybrids. Something like turning algae to gasoline creates a net neutrality fuel that doesnt change the infrastructure of the gasoline networks. It much less disruptive to the system.
 

TyGuy

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I really don't care how he reacts emotionally.

If he can challenge my assumption, I'd be excited to be wrong. If he understands the topic well and has information I haven't found before, that would be pretty cool.
Well, maybe you should, so that the conversation can roll in good faith? Your post was fine without that dig. It was unnecessary and only serves to elevate hostility.
 

Blink

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I don't think you understand the topic.

The current battery tech is rated for about 10% degradation after 1000 full charge cycles. Since it's incredibly rare to hit a full charge cycle, this number is realistically doubled to 2,000 half-cycles (Anything above 30% is considered a half-cycle).

2,000 charges gets you close to that 8-year warranty that Tesla offers. With progressive degradation, you're probably still going to have a car that's at least 80% of its original battery capacity 15+ years into ownership.

Also, instead of taking my hypothetical breakdown, here's some actual data from 286 model S owners: https://electrek.co/2016/11/01/tesla-battery-degradation/

For the people saying "a battery" costs $5k+, your terminology is really off. The Model S contains 7,104 individual batteries. That $5k+ cost is the price to replace the entire battery pack.

With fewer moving parts and lower cost of maintenance, there's no reason for a modern electric vehicle to not hold its value well past where a traditional combustion engine would be scrapped.

Also, we're nearing more major breakthroughs in battery technology. There are a lot of companies out there doing some pretty cool things, like batteries configured so that you can drain the reduced charge fluids from a lithium-ion battery and replace it with new fluids. Boom, back to 100% of your initial battery life.

The downsides right now would be the cost of production for the electric vehicle. It's not cheap and it's not environmentally friendly to produce. But once you get past those two, I think the only obstacle left is the American fear of miles per charge.
Testing. Developing. Will be. Breakthroughs.

Most people understand that electric is the future of cars. But it is not the present. 5 or 10 years down the road maybe, probably. That doesn't help someone that needs a car today.
 

Out of the Rafters at the Q

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I understand that it's cells but look at the price of a Prius that has a bad battery code. The dealer wouldn't sell you a cell, you have to buy a whole battery. It's a DYI and not to many mechanics will go thru the trouble to replace a single cell. Overtime it's not cost effective to change out cells on a individual bases because of the labor cost.

I also understand that they are trying to replace the fluids on batteries like just filling gas. I also know there is alot of other technology being worked on and electric cars might not be the total solution to transportation in the future. It's why car manufacturers are still making hybrids. Something like turning algae to gasoline creates a net neutrality fuel that doesnt change the infrastructure of the gasoline networks. It much less disruptive to the system.
Those are some really good points. I think there's a huge difference between the first generation of hybrids and a modern electric vehicle.

I'm also not claiming that we'll see service departments replacing individual batteries within the entire array. The technicians are definitely not going to be undertaking that work, even if Tesla gave them the diagnostic information to specify which cells are degraded. They're going to offer to replace the entire pack or nothing.

Biofuels are interesting, but I think that with how much more advanced the electric motor is compared to a combustion engine, electric cars are the way we move. Look at supercars. Anything with just traditional combustion engine seems like a fossil at this point. Since Tesla has paid the incredibly high burden of innovation to get electric vehicles where they are now, nearly every other major car company on the planet has dumped a TON of money into both electric vehicles and autonomous vehicles. You say they still make hybrids. I say most of their R&D budget isn't going towards those projects.

The consumer demand isn't there yet, and I think that's a big challenge. There's going to be fear in America due to mileage limitations, the oil lobby, the prevalence of charging stations, etc. I think we might fall behind the rest of the world on this one.
 

TyGuy

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Testing. Developing. Will be. Breakthroughs.

Most people understand that electric is the future of cars. But it is not the present. 5 or 10 years down the road maybe, probably. That doesn't help someone that needs a car today.
Indeed, really the only argument people are making is that the tech isn't there now. When the mass can afford vehicles, and when they have more charging stations that aren't proprietary and they don't take 700 % longer to recharge/refuel... Then we are talking. I think everybody would happily give up their internal combustion engine vehicle.
 

Out of the Rafters at the Q

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Testing. Developing. Will be. Breakthroughs.

Most people understand that electric is the future of cars. But it is not the present. 5 or 10 years down the road maybe, probably. That doesn't help someone that needs a car today.
I think the technology is already there.

I don't think the mind of the consumer is there yet--especially in this country.
 

inliner311

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Testing. Developing. Will be. Breakthroughs.

Most people understand that electric is the future of cars. But it is not the present. 5 or 10 years down the road maybe, probably. That doesn't help someone that needs a car today.
Exactly. Also electric is going to be part of the solution and there is a good chance that it won't be a complete solution for everyone and everything. Hydrogen and Algae biofuels might give us a bridge to some of the concerns people have with electric cars. There is also alot of other transportation and heavy machinery that electric might not make sense for.

Also storage of electricity and the world moving away from fossil fuels to green electricity has to progress for electric cars to actually work in the future. What's the point of using a electric car if the energy is coming from natural gas or coal.
 

Out of the Rafters at the Q

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When I say someone is being ignorant in a rebuttal you are free to point it out and I will definitely change my tone.
I'm not sure why you think ignorance is insulting. There's no personal slight if you're not informed or aware of something. If you are aware and make poor decisions, that's when there's an issue.
 

Nathan S

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Testing. Developing. Will be. Breakthroughs.

Most people understand that electric is the future of cars. But it is not the present. 5 or 10 years down the road maybe, probably. That doesn't help someone that needs a car today.
What if you can buy an electric car knowing that in 10 years, you'll get a replacement battery that has twice the capacity, twice the charging rate, and twice the lifespan of a current battery? From that perspective, future technology is very relevant to the investment you're making today.
 

inliner311

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Those are some really good points. I think there's a huge difference between the first generation of hybrids and a modern electric vehicle.

I'm also not claiming that we'll see service departments replacing individual batteries within the entire array. The technicians are definitely not going to be undertaking that work, even if Tesla gave them the diagnostic information to specify which cells are degraded. They're going to offer to replace the entire pack or nothing.

Biofuels are interesting, but I think that with how much more advanced the electric motor is compared to a combustion engine, electric cars are the way we move. Look at supercars. Anything with just traditional combustion engine seems like a fossil at this point. Since Tesla has paid the incredibly high burden of innovation to get electric vehicles where they are now, nearly every other major car company on the planet has dumped a TON of money into both electric vehicles and autonomous vehicles. You say they still make hybrids. I say most of their R&D budget isn't going towards those projects.

The consumer demand isn't there yet, and I think that's a big challenge. There's going to be fear in America due to mileage limitations, the oil lobby, the prevalence of charging stations, etc. I think we might fall behind the rest of the world on this one.
The thing with Algae gasoline is they have already made fuels that will run on a current gas cars without any modifications. They also have made Diesel and jet fuel from Algae too. The problem is figuring out how to scale it and they need funding to do so. If everyone is jumping on the electric car bandwagon, it's hard for companies to get the investors for these biofuels.

I actually think they should be trying to figure out the biofuels and putting money into that before trying something like swapping battery fluids. The biofuels can bridge us into net neutral fuels at least while electric technology can progress to be a potential pure solution.
 

inliner311

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Do you mean the sensors that make them safe? The 3 safest cars ever tested by NHTSA are teslas, not only that, unlike other manufactures, there is no uncharge for these safety features, even the base model has all of them.
I'm not saying sensors don't make them safer but if you ever work on a car, the sensors are worse part of modern cars. When they aren't working properly they are giving false data and creating issues in other connected areas. Sensors are also expensive and the diagnosis isn't there to pin point problems even with sensors that have been around for 30+ years. Tracing down a bad O2 sensor isn't as straight forward as you would think it is. You see big bill from dealers because they just replace multiple sensors, valves and related parts so the customer doesn't have to come back multiple times for one faulty sensor.
 

Blink

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You
I think the technology is already there.

I don't think the mind of the consumer is there yet--especially in this country.
I agree that the mind of the consumer is not there.

I think you're jumping the gun on the technology part. "Researchers are developing" usually ends up either with the technology not working, or being economically unfeasable.

Even with a working technology, you will have years of engineering, performance and durability testing, sourcing, and production ramp-up.

Best case you are 3 to 5 years away from scaling something to mass production, and that is a very compressed timeline.
 

Man Called X

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Everyone talking about electric cars has never tried to diagnose a faulty sensor. You all don't realize how common it can be to have a dirty sensor throwing codes all around the car. God forbid they try to chase a phantom draw in the system.
 

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