Cleveland Guardians Offseason Discussion 2021-22

[AZ_]

A lot of those guys stink though

Let him go, he’s just having another adolescent melt down in which he browbeats everyone with mind-numbing false equivalence and no context.


Boring and unoriginal fits like a glove when you realize this is a weekly occurrence here anymore.

 

[CDAV45]

The Cardinals lost Jack Flaherty, Carlos Martinez, Dakota Hudson, Kwang Hyun-Kim, Jordan Hicks, Daniel Ponce de Leon, Andrew Miller, and Miles Mikolas for months due to injury, yet they still made the postseason.

Are you trying to compare the loss of those players to Bieber, Civale, and Plesac?

 

[KluberSociety]

Are you trying to compare the loss of those players to Bieber, Civale, and Plesac?

I don't really know how we should assess Flaherty, Mikolas, and Hudson but I think when healthy they can be better than Civale and Plesac. Obviously nothing lost at the level of Bieber though. Hyun-Kim is a decent back of rotation guy, Miller hasn't been good since he was with Cleveland, Carlos hasn't been good for a while and Ponce de Leon is terrible.

I think a case can be made that those injury losses as a whole approach what Cleveland dealt with.

 

[CDAV45]

Speaking of SP injuries and considering the SP depth, who do you folks think will make their MLB debuts for us in 22? I'd certainly say Morris followed by Pilkington. If they have to go to anyone not on the 40 man then we're probably looking at Battenfield, Myers, LT Allen, and Curry depending on their performances. I will be surprised if Battenfield doesn't pitch in Cleveland at some point in the 22 season.

I know I can exude a lot of confidence in prospects, but that fact that these guys don't walk many while posting very good SO numbers makes me think that any of them could effectively replace any SP not named Bieber in our rotation. Especially Civale, Plesac, and Quantrill.

Sprinkle in the power arms of Espino, Torres, Hankins, Vargas, and a few others then there's an argument that the quality of the SP depth is comparable to the MIF depth. I find it pretty freakin' exciting.

 

[CDAV45]

I don't really know how we should assess Flaherty, Mikolas, and Hudson but I think when healthy they can be better than Civale and Plesac. Obviously nothing lost at the level of Bieber though. Hyun-Kim is a decent back of rotation guy, Miller hasn't been good since he was with Cleveland, Carlos hasn't been good for a while and Ponce de Leon is terrible.

I think a case can be made that those injury losses as a whole approach what Cleveland dealt with.

I would argue that they are on the same level as Civale and Plesac, but when you factor in Bieber and the lack of offense that Cleveland has, the comparison isn't even close.

 

[AZ_]

Are you trying to compare the loss of those players to Bieber, Civale, and Plesac?

Of course he is.

Dakota Hudson has one okay season (2019) and has pitched 50 innings since

Ponca de Leon was a 0 WAR player in ‘20, then a -0.5 in 2021

Hicks has pitched 38 innings since 2018



Guy lazily took a quick look at the roster and tries to falsely equate the impact, ignoring their acquisitions of Jon Lester and JA Happ.

Cobbled together to whine cry about the same garbage for the 100th time, brow beating and passive aggressively attempting to bully anyone who dare acknowledge the spending realities of a franchise who has no real fan support.



The boring and unoriginal part of the fan base is the living, breathing example of the challenges Cleveland faces, even when they develop a winner it won’t be good enough.

It never will.

 

[sportscoach]

Of course he is.

Dakota Hudson has one okay season (2019) and has pitched 50 innings since

Ponca de Leon was a 0 WAR player in ‘20, then a -0.5 in 2021

Hicks has pitched 38 innings since 2018



Guy lazily took a quick look at the roster and tries to falsely equate the impact, ignoring their acquisitions of Jon Lester and JA Happ.

Cobbled together to whine cry about the same garbage for the 100th time, brow beating and passive aggressively attempting to bully anyone who dare acknowledge the spending realities of a franchise who has no real fan support.



The boring and unoriginal part of the fan base is the living, breathing example of the challenges Cleveland faces, even when they develop a winner it won’t be good enough.

It never will.

We could spend 200 million on a team in a season and people will still complain about something... I just normally kind of ignore people if I think they are too far into LF with their opinions lol

Cardinals did lose some guys, but like you said, they went and got some stopgap veterans... Maybe that was our mistake, but we have so many good young arms, you gotta see what you can do and personally I think we were one of the teams that got hurt the most cause of 2020. Most of the replacements we had in house really didn't see the live action in 20, so that hurt their development...

 

[CDAV45]

Of course he is.

Dakota Hudson has one okay season (2019) and has pitched 50 innings since

Ponca de Leon was a 0 WAR player in ‘20, then a -0.5 in 2021

Hicks has pitched 38 innings since 2018



Guy lazily took a quick look at the roster and tries to falsely equate the impact, ignoring their acquisitions of Jon Lester and JA Happ.

Cobbled together to whine cry about the same garbage for the 100th time, brow beating and passive aggressively attempting to bully anyone who dare acknowledge the spending realities of a franchise who has no real fan support.



The boring and unoriginal part of the fan base is the living, breathing example of the challenges Cleveland faces, even when they develop a winner it won’t be good enough.

It never will.

It's too bad because what they've done and how they've done it go very underappreciated IMO. I'm on the other end of the spectrum when talking about FA. I don't want them to sign a single expensive FA. I'd prefer they use those monies to extend our homegrown talent. I don't support every decision they make, but then again I don't support every decision I make either. This is the best f'n FO in baseball and we're so close to realizing what they've assembled.

 

[AZ_]

It's too bad because what they've done and how they've done it go very underappreciated IMO. I'm on the other end of the spectrum when talking about FA. I don't want them to sign a single expensive FA. I'd prefer they use those monies to extend our homegrown talent. I don't support every decision they make, but then again I don't support every decision I make either. This is the best f'n FO in baseball and we're so close to realizing what they've assembled.

I also don’t want to marginalize what the cardinals accomplished, either.

Adjusting and getting the performances they did last year was incredible, it should be celebrated.

Not lazily used to piss and moan about the Cleveland and not being able to overcome the loss of two Cy Young caliber starters they built their rotation around,



Margin for error isn’t as big for teams that draw what Cleveland draws.

 

[CDAV45]

We could spend 200 million on a team in a season and people will still complain about something... I just normally kind of ignore people if I think they are too far into LF with their opinions lol

Cardinals did lose some guys, but like you said, they went and got some stopgap veterans... Maybe that was our mistake, but we have so many good young arms, you gotta see what you can do and personally I think we were one of the teams that got hurt the most cause of 2020. Most of the replacements we had in house really didn't see the live action in 20, so that hurt their development...

I'm just gonna go ahead and say it. Guys like LT Allen, Battenfield, Morris, Pilkington, Curry, and the recently added Myers are going to make guys like Plesac, Civale, and maybe even Quantrill expendable. We're not even mentioning Espino, Hankins, or any of the guys drafted this year. There is a SP landslide coming and it's coming fast. We spend so much time talking about the MIF depth and the quality therein, but the SP depth is right there as well.

Considering the depth in those areas, there is absolutely no reason to sign an expensive FA. They'll continue to make good trades and this team will be loaded no later than 2023 and as soon as the start of 2022.

 

[CDAV45]

I also don’t want to marginalize what the cardinals accomplished, either.

Adjusting and getting the performances they did last year was incredible, it should be celebrated.

Not lazily used to piss and moan about the Cleveland and not being able to overcome the loss of two Cy Young caliber starters they built their rotation around,



Margin for error isn’t as big for teams that draw what Cleveland draws.

Absolutely agree with this and it reinforces why I think Cleveland Guardian fans should be impressed instead of bitching and moaning all the time. I'm not perfect by any means and there have been occasions where I get caught up in the moment, but this FO has my respect and confidence to put a winner on the field. Even better is how they've gone about doing so. Not once did they tank or say "fuck it" we're tearing it down for 5 years.

 

[Wham with the Right Hand]

I'm just gonna go ahead and say it. Guys like LT Allen, Battenfield, Morris, Pilkington, Curry, and the recently added Myers are going to make guys like Plesac, Civale, and maybe even Quantrill expendable. We're not even mentioning Espino, Hankins, or any of the guys drafted this year. There is a SP landslide coming and it's coming fast. We spend so much time talking about the MIF depth and the quality therein, but the SP depth is right there as well.

Considering the depth in those areas, there is absolutely no reason to sign an expensive FA. They'll continue to make good trades and this team will be loaded no later than 2023 and as soon as the start of 2022.

Quantrill was 8-3, 2.89. He'll be 27 in Feb. and made huge strides once he became a regular starter and could get into a routine. I don't think he'll be replaced by any of those guys in the minors.

Civale was 12-5, 3.84 in only 21 starts. He'll be 26 until June. I can't see anybody coming out of the minors and taking his spot.

Plesac had a 4.67 ERA, although it was 4.14 when his season was interrupted by a self-inflicted injury. I could see him on the bubble, but he's still 26 and probably has not reached his peak yet.

Add Bieber and McKenzie and this team is loaded with quality starters already with major league experience. Absent a lot of injuries I don't see most of the minor leaguers pitching in Cleveland this year. Eli Morgan is also an option if somebody goes down.

 

[Criznit]

A fan doesn't have to be a loyalist, and IMO the team can do no wrong rhetoric can get just as annoying as the complaining/whining

It's all opinions and doesn't mean squat. Try not to take it to heart too much.

 

[CDAV45]

Quantrill was 8-3, 2.89. He'll be 27 in Feb. and made huge strides once he became a regular starter and could get into a routine. I don't think he'll be replaced by any of those guys in the minors.

Civale was 12-5, 3.84 in only 21 starts. He'll be 26 until June. I can't see anybody coming out of the minors and taking his spot.

Plesac had a 4.67 ERA, although it was 4.14 when his season was interrupted by a self-inflicted injury. I could see him on the bubble, but he's still 26 and probably has not reached his peak yet.

Add Bieber and McKenzie and this team is loaded with quality starters already with major league experience. Absent a lot of injuries I don't see most of the minor leaguers pitching in Cleveland this year. Eli Morgan is also an option if somebody goes down.

Those that I mentioned have marginally better "stuff" and just as much pitchability as Quantrill, Civale, and Plesac. I'm not down on them at all. In fact, I think Quantrill has found himself and if Plesac stays with the Guardians I think he's going to have a huge rebound season. I think we've seen the best from Civale so I don't see anymore projection out of him, but he's obviously a solid SP.

Morris is going to force somebody out or lay claim to a vacancy created by an injury. Pilkington, Battenfield, and Allen are of the same mold as Quantrill IMO, but they have better control. All 3 are close to being ready if they're not now. Myers and Curry won't be flying under the radar for long because they have some power to their arms and throw a ton of strikes.

All of these kids are upper level prospects and something is gonna have to give by 2023. I don't expect much if any regression from these guys either. Hopefully they stay healthy because they're polished pitching prospects that fit Cleveland's mold.

 

[BMAN]

A fan doesn't have to be a loyalist, and IMO the team can do no wrong rhetoric can get just as annoying as the complaining/whining

It's all opinions and doesn't mean squat. Try not to take it to heart too much.

There’s a hell of a lot more bitching. Not even sure anyone has said the team can do no wrong by the way. Just sounds like one of those both sides cop out.