Cleveland Guardians Offseason Discussion 2021-22

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petes999

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It was well played by the MLBPA today ... yet before we get too hopeful, consider this

1) How likely was the move to lower FA by a whole year from 6 to 5? What was the middle ground? Players gave it up but the key will be what do they expect on the arbitration side instead and what will Owners be willing to give on that? They devil is in the details on how much will players get for an extra year of arbitration? Players maybe gambling that a win here could be almost as big as an extra year for FAs if salaries for Arb1-3 stay about the same (just a year earlier) and Arb-4 is similar to Arb-2 to Arb-3 increase. They can say, we gave them FA ... give us arbitration.

2) How much was the $100 million shift in revenue sharing going to shift the pay for everyone? Just seemed like a ploy to discuss the tight wad small owners. Would taking $5-$10 million from Pirates and giving it to NY/LA really opened pocketbooks? For one, it means less money to spend on an already tight budget, for the other it was pocket change. Again, it probably wouldn't have happened ... but players look good in media by giving more than the owners did on their first pass.

3) What are they really going to discuss tomorrow? Small issues .. Owners need a week or two at least to respond with their counteroffer ... probably, hoping, that the closer to the deadline (ST) will make players balk on the main issue of arbitration.

For me, it is in the counter proposal that matters .... but right now what was given today was the sacrificial lamb that unions always put into their first proposals (things that they don't expect to get but need for leverage). They gave up their leverage either out of desperation or because they made an ultimatum in the meeting for owners to give a similar amount back to them (the line in the sand).
 

CATS44

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Every journey begins with a first step. No matter how small, the PAs proposal today was a first step, although it was a step that could have...not necessarily should have...been made in August.
 

Gson

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It was well played by the MLBPA today ... yet before we get too hopeful, consider this

1) How likely was the move to lower FA by a whole year from 6 to 5? What was the middle ground? Players gave it up but the key will be what do they expect on the arbitration side instead and what will Owners be willing to give on that? They devil is in the details on how much will players get for an extra year of arbitration? Players maybe gambling that a win here could be almost as big as an extra year for FAs if salaries for Arb1-3 stay about the same (just a year earlier) and Arb-4 is similar to Arb-2 to Arb-3 increase. They can say, we gave them FA ... give us arbitration.

2) How much was the $100 million shift in revenue sharing going to shift the pay for everyone? Just seemed like a ploy to discuss the tight wad small owners. Would taking $5-$10 million from Pirates and giving it to NY/LA really opened pocketbooks? For one, it means less money to spend on an already tight budget, for the other it was pocket change. Again, it probably wouldn't have happened ... but players look good in media by giving more than the owners did on their first pass.

3) What are they really going to discuss tomorrow? Small issues .. Owners need a week or two at least to respond with their counteroffer ... probably, hoping, that the closer to the deadline (ST) will make players balk on the main issue of arbitration.

For me, it is in the counter proposal that matters .... but right now what was given today was the sacrificial lamb that unions always put into their first proposals (things that they don't expect to get but need for leverage). They gave up their leverage either out of desperation or because they made an ultimatum in the meeting for owners to give a similar amount back to them (the line in the sand).
This discussion is more on the cup half empty than the cup half full... but...

The concessions by the MLBPA will need to see reciprocal responses from the Owners.. perhaps in the payroll ladder number$ for youngsters breaking into the major leagues from day ONE plus through free agency.. Afterall.. it's just money..

Encouraging would be how I'd describe what LITTLE has been leaked..
 

macbdog

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It's understandable the players want (and IMO deserve) changes to the current FA system, but the age based approach seemed pretty flawed so I am glad they are moving on sooner than later.

The players throw out the 1st "compromise"... Good sign I think, but.... Let's see how the owners/MLB respond. Will they say thank you and reciprocate, or will they throw the well timed but ruthless cold shoulder??
I think every player, regardless of contract status, should get a one time player controlled opt out opportunity at age 30. Fact is, the low revenue teams are apparently staffed with hippies since they don't trust players over 30, each player should have the opportunity to maximize their earnings at that crucial age when long-term deals dry up after that.
 

Lee

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A lot of ground made up today.

Them meeting tomorrow is a huge indicator where things stand between the 2 parties as well.

I dont expect an answer, but why do all of the leagues what several months till things get desperate before they actually start negotiating in good faith.

Its so fucking stupid...sorry, just cant stand how these things always work out. Missed some season for nothing but a bunch of overpaid people (owners and players) who cant get along for no reason but egos.
 

BimboColesHair

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I dont expect an answer, but why do all of the leagues what several months till things get desperate before they actually start negotiating in good faith.

Its so fucking stupid...sorry, just cant stand how these things always work out. Missed some season for nothing but a bunch of overpaid people (owners and players) who cant get along for no reason but egos.

They’ve been having CBA discussions for over 3 years now. A lot of common ground has been found on a lot of things over that time frame but the most pressing issues on both sides are all that remain at the moment.

They’ve had sporadic talks touching on these topics at varying times in the last few years, notably at the all star game this past season, and that’s when the conversations get ugly.

Conversation today was ugly. But that they are willing to meet the next day is big even with it getting heated.

Said it in here for a while, both sides feel the pressure. Both sides are fearful of the fan like you that could potentially walk from supporting the league like they did in droves in the 90s if a lockout spills into the season.

Still wouldn’t put it past them to not fuck it all up at the current moment though.
 

MadThinker88

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The more that gets done behind the scenes and away from the bright lights of media exposure, the better.
Some might be familiar with the phrase "Don't let them (the public) see you make the sausage". The same idea holds true in all labor contract negotiations (sports or general business related)...
 

CATS44

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I wonder what all these early behind-the-scenes negotiations entailed, because they weren't about anything that would be a deal breaker.

Baseballs should be white, outfield grass should be green, bats should be made of wood, the infield should be called a diamond, as opposed to a square.

According to multiple reports, the owners suggested that they were willing to lose some of the regular season if they dont get what they want.

Sure sounds like they care about the future of the game to me. They care about one thing, and one thing only, and it isn't about what's best for the game.
 

petes999

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The more that gets done behind the scenes and away from the bright lights of media exposure, the better.
Some might be familiar with the phrase "Don't let them (the public) see you make the sausage". The same idea holds true in all labor contract negotiations (sports or general business related)...

Unfortunately, the reason it seems like negotiations are not in public is there seems to be no negotiations. For all the talk that they were meeting last year, to need to wait to January to really discuss what each side wants and trade first proposals means most of the talk was unfortunately about what color the grass and the balls should be (bit of exaggeration of course).

The good news is that they finally cleared out a lot of the weeds and can finally discuss real negotiation points. As I said, the key will be how much the owners are willing to give or do they prefer to hold to their line and risk the start of the season (as I saw on Twitter). Sure, everyone wants what is good for the game, but once the owners give into 2 years of service for arbitration, they open the flood gates to real money being spent earlier in careers.

Players will want Arb1-3 money done a year earlier and Arb-4 to be closer to FA money. Owners will give a few $$$s earlier on but will want Arb-4 to resemble more like Arb-3 $$$ now. Yet, for the players to even get Arb to start after 2 years is a win because the next negotiations can push the Arb $$$ line closer to what they want (so watch the length of CBA - is it just a patch work for 2-3 years or long-term).
 

BimboColesHair

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I wonder what all these early behind-the-scenes negotiations entailed, because they weren't about anything that would be a deal breaker.

Baseballs should be white, outfield grass should be green, bats should be made of wood, the infield should be called a diamond, as opposed to a square.

According to multiple reports, the owners suggested that they were willing to lose some of the regular season if they dont get what they want.

Sure sounds like they care about the future of the game to me. They care about one thing, and one thing only, and it isn't about what's best for the game.

This is what you got out of what I just said? Nailed it, your expertise of what is in a multiple thousands page CBA is on point.

Alright everyone, enjoy the rest of the lockout. See you in here when it’s over.
 

CalBuckeyeRob

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While those of us on here love the sport, baseball is slowly eroding popularity with new fans and a prolonged lockout will just make that worse. It is amazing that rich people with tons of money to spread around cant agree on ways to make all them richer. But it has been the destructive nature of baseball labor negotiations forever.
 

CATS44

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This is what you got out of what I just said? Nailed it, your expertise of what is in a multiple thousands page CBA is on point.

Alright everyone, enjoy the rest of the lockout. See you in here when it’s over.

No, this is what I've gotten out of every bit of info I can find on these negotiations, along with the long track records of both sides in earlier negotiations...plus my own personal experiences in management-union relations....on both sides...off and on from 1980 to 2016.

The anger expressed by both sides at proposals made so far...what few there have been...indicates that any discussions over the last seven months or even the last several years have not been intended to address the real meat of the differences. Everything discussed in these early negotiations are nearly meaningless when it comes to ending the lockout. They won't move the needle more than a few hours once the real differences are bridged.

On one hand we have assurances that both sides understand and have concern about how baseball is being viewed by its fans..and they know the damage that has been done in the past. On the other hand we have actions that clearly indicate otherwise...or that they just don't give a rats ass.

Actions always say more than words.

Both sides are looking for leverage, which has nothing to do with the best interest of the game.

This is not to say that both sides moves are not the proper way to negotiate. Having been on both sides, I've been involved in leverage. But when on either side, the group I was working with never cared about the best interests of the industry as a whole.

All they wanted...all I wanted...was the mostest for the leastest.
 

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