Collin Sexton | The Young Bull

[ryanf]

This is a thread where weepinwillow has dug himself a fox hole and is blindly defending that line. Others have debunked all of his arguments but he still fights for that imaginary line.

Dude, i think everyone gets that sexton can still improve. But all your concerns and accusations don't point to the fact that collin has continued working on his floor game and is becoming a better play maker for others. He's even decent now in that regard. A decent floor game with high efficiency scoring and you relegate him to the bench? Wtf right?

 

[BigZ94]

I feel like people get too hung up in the assist as a stat that represents good ball movement. It can be misleading. There are guys like Jokic, CP3, Rondo, Steve Nash that average high assist numbers because of their excellent basketball IQ and unselfishness.

on the Other hand you also have guys like Westbrook who average great assist numbers, but those numbers are fools gold because they only pass the ball if it leads to an assist, I felt the same way about Drummond.

Look at the Utah Jazz, they are without a doubt the most unselfish team in the league this year, hard to argue they have the best ball movement. Yet the player with the highest is assist total is Mike Conley with a 5.7 per game. Not a stat which would blow your mind. The same could be said for those fantastic Spurs teams, they didn’t have one guy averaging 10+ Assists just a group of unselfish guys.

This is what I’m seeing from Collin, he looks to score, or looks to make the assist with the occasional lob. But I don’t see him moving the ball for the sake of ball movement. He can kill our offensive at times with selfish play, and a selfish play can also be making a play just look to score or make the assist. You can also see it in his teammates reactions at times it must be frustrating playing with him.

This is why I consider him a 6th man type player as he is right now. A spark plug off the bench, an excellent one at that who can just get you buckets.

 

[ryanf]

I feel like people get too hung up in the assist as a stat that represents good ball movement. It can be misleading. There are guys like Jokic, CP3, Rondo, Steve Nash that average high assist numbers because of their excellent basketball IQ and unselfishness.

on the Other hand you also have guys like Westbrook who average great assist numbers, but those numbers are fools gold because they only pass the ball if it leads to an assist, I felt the same way about Drummond.

Look at the Utah Jazz, they are without a doubt the most unselfish team in the league this year, hard to argue they have the best ball movement. Yet the player with the highest is assist total is Mike Conley with a 5.7 per game. Not a stat which would blow your mind. The same could be said for those fantastic Spurs teams, they didn’t have one guy averaging 10+ Assists just a group of unselfish guys.

This is what I’m seeing from Collin, he looks to score, or looks to make the assist with the occasional lob. But I don’t see him moving the ball for the sake of ball movement. He can kill our offensive at times with selfish play, and a selfish play can also be making a play just look to score or make the assist. You can also see it in his teammates reactions at times it must be frustrating playing with him.

This is why I consider him a 6th man type player as he is right now. A spark plug off the bench, an excellent one at that who can just get you buckets.

by your definition, kobe and carmelo is a sixth man.

 

[ryanf]

your eyes and bias might be deceiving you coz stats don't lie

(you can forget about drummond's passes and assists, he has 3.5 turnovers per game)

PASS FROM	GP	FREQ	PASS	AST
Garland, Darius	24	14.00%	55	5.8
Sexton, Collin	27	13.80%	48.1	4
Drummond, Andre	24	10.20%	40.1	2.5
Nance Jr., Larry	18	7.60%	39.7	3.3
Exum, Dante	5	1.90%	35.2	2.6
Allen, Jarrett	19	7.00%	34.9	1.8

 

[BigZ94]

by your definition, kobe and carmelo is a sixth man.

Kobe and Carmelo arnt 6ft1 gaurds. Both played with point gaurds most of their careers. Kobe is an all time great and an elite defender.

Also what has a team lead by Melo ever won? His inefficiency and selfishness has been a criticism of his game for most of his career. Kobe could get away with it because he’s an all time great.

Furthermore I don’t think Kobe would have been as great in this era of ball. Look at the scores of those finals games he appeared in during his 08-10 finals run, you don’t win a championship averaging 90 points per game as a team in today’s NBA

in the 2010 finals the Lakers averaged 90 points per game and the Celtics 87. The worst team in the NBA today (us) still averages over 100.

I think it’s quite obvious Sexton doesn’t see the game very well, he’s a great scorer sure, and his passing is getting better. But he still obviously suffers from tunnel vision especially recently he seems to have regressed a little in that regard.
This comment was a bit of an oversimplification of my post

 

[BigZ94]

by your definition, kobe and carmelo is a sixth man.

My main reasoning behind him being a 6th man is this:

-He’s not a point gaurd, he doesn’t have the vision and the ability to run a team and get his teammates involved. He’s shown nothing to prove me otherwise

-He’s a fantastic efficient scorer, yet he’s 6ft1, so he’s not big enough to play shooting guard. He’s too small to defend opposing teams SGs. So on a team with championship aspirations he will always be a liability on defensive. Also shooting over other teams big SGs will be an issue for him.

-The only way as some other posters have mentioned you could realistically see him staring on a top team is if you have a big wing who can play point, a Ben Simmons, Lebron, Doncic Lamelo ball type guy. Those kind of players are very rare so the chances of us getting one are very slim.

So he can’t play point, but also can’t play SG due to his size. So logically the obvious decision is to bring him off the bench as a dynamic scorer and spark plug who is an instant bucket off the bench.

if you disagree curious what your reasoning is?

 

[ryanf]

See passes and assist stats i posted. Sexton having those numbers even if he plays with garland more than half the time. Means he attempts to make plays and is getting better at it. Your argument is nitpicking certain instances when Sexton gets tunnel vision (every good player is a victim to that once in a while), and you use the word "obvious" a lot.

Can you give me anything else except for "that one time" and "obvious"?

 

[BigZ94]

See passes and assist stats i posted. Sexton having those numbers even if he plays with garland more than half the time. Means he attempts to make plays and is getting better at it. Your argument is nitpicking certain instances when Sexton gets tunnel vision (every good player is a victim to that once in a while), and you use the word "obvious" a lot.

Can you give me anything else except for "that one time" and "obvious"?

Ok dude we can just agree to disagree, when I watch Sexton play I see a score first guard who dribbles the air out of the ball on most possessions, and does pass but usually once he’s already eaten up 15 seconds of the shot clock. Showing me a stat that shows he makes passes doesn’t change my mind. Since he brings the ball up it’s normal he will have a higher number of passes then other guys. When the ball comes to him it far too often sticks. Sure he does pass but normally that’s after taking a couple dribbles, you rarely see a hockey assist from him due to his low basketball IQ.

the stat your showing doesn’t prove anything about his basketball IQ it just shows that he passes the ball. It doesn’t show anything about if he makes the “right” pass.

Anyways what does that have anything to do with him not being a 6th man? Also poking fun at me for using a certain word numerous times doesn’t make you right. I do think it’s the obvious decision for him to come off the bench at some point in his career if he doesn’t develop the ability to play point gaurd. Or we will continue to have the worst defence in the NBA

Anyways I like Sexton, very talented scorer, great kid hard worker. I just don’t see him as a starting PG or SG on an Elite team for the reasons I mentioned before

 

[ansatsusha80]

Ok dude we can just agree to disagree, when I watch Sexton play I see a score first guard who dribbles the air out of the ball on most possessions, and does pass but usually once he’s already eaten up 15 seconds of the shot clock. Showing me a stat that shows he makes passes doesn’t change my mind. Since he brings the ball up it’s normal he will have a higher number of passes then other guys. When the ball comes to him it far too often sticks. Sure he does pass but normally that’s after taking a couple dribbles, you rarely see a hockey assist from him due to his low basketball IQ.

the stat your showing doesn’t prove anything about his basketball IQ it just shows that he passes the ball. It doesn’t show anything about if he makes the “right” pass.

Anyways what does that have anything to do with him not being a 6th man? Also poking fun at me for using a certain word numerous times doesn’t make you right. I do think it’s obvious decision is for him to come off the bench at some point in his career if he doesn’t develop the ability to play point gaurd. Or we will continue to have the worst defence in the NBA

Anyways I like Sexton, very talented scorer, great kid hard worker. I just don’t see him as a starting PG or SG on an Elite team for the reasons I mentioned before

And you're just like the other idiots that always moving the goalpost when it comes to him.

Nobody isn't saying Sexton is perfect but it seems like alot of fans and the media always want to put him and everyone else that's not Kyrie and Lebron in a type of box. At,one point does it stops especially when it comes to Sexton. He already shut down alot of his critics yet they always find a way to nitpick something about him.

Never,in my life I've seen a fanbase nitpick about a player in my life just because the player they wanted wasn't drafted by the team. At,some point people need to get over it. Michael Porter Jr and Shai Gilegeous-Alexander aren't coming through that door,so you mind as well deal with it or not be a fan of the team.

 

[Man Called X]

And you're just like the other idiots that always moving the goalpost when it comes to him.

Nobody isn't saying Sexton is perfect but it seems like alot of fans and the media always want to put him and everyone else that's not Kyrie and Lebron in a type of box. At,one point does it stops especially when it comes to Sexton. He already shut down alot of his critics yet they always find a way to nitpick something about him.

Never,in my life I've seen a fanbase nitpick about a player in my life just because the player they wanted wasn't drafted by the team. At,some point people need to get over it. Michael Porter Jr and Shai Gilegeous-Alexander aren't coming through that door,so you mind as well deal with it or not be a fan of the team.

Nothing I enjoy more than clamoring for SGA while conveniently forgetting he refused to work out for us and pretty much said he wouldn't play here. Would've been the perfect way to start another rebuild by drafting a player in the lotto that refused to play for us.

 

[ansatsusha80]

Nothing I enjoy more than clamoring for SGA while conveniently forgetting he refused to work out for us and pretty much said he wouldn't play here. Would've been the perfect way to start another rebuild by drafting a player in the lotto that refused to play for us.

It would've been a wasted pick and people would be yelling and screaming,why the Cavs drafted a player that didn't want to come here. He would most likely left during free agency,especially after having four coaches in two years.At least,with Sexton, he will most likely return.

I understand why the Cavs didn't draft MPJ because nobody didnt know how serious his injury was at the time.

 

[BigZ94]

And you're just like the other idiots that always moving the goalpost when it comes to him.

Nobody isn't saying Sexton is perfect but it seems like alot of fans and the media always want to put him and everyone else that's not Kyrie and Lebron in a type of box. At,one point does it stops especially when it comes to Sexton. He already shut down alot of his critics yet they always find a way to nitpick something about him.

Never,in my life I've seen a fanbase nitpick about a player in my life just because the player they wanted wasn't drafted by the team. At,some point people need to get over it. Michael Porter Jr and Shai Gilegeous-Alexander aren't coming through that door,so you mind as well deal with it or not be a fan of the team.

man why are you calling me an idiot? Did you even read my posts? I’ve commented many times about how I like Sexton, I’ve repeatedly complemented his game and his scoring ability. As I’ve said he’s a good kid and has an amazing work ethic. All I’m saying is I don’t think he’s a legit starter on an elite NBA team, due to his size as an SG. Saying he would be best suited as a prolific 6th man off the bench doesn’t mean I think he’s a bad player. And when have I moved the goalposts? I’ve always been behind Colin

I never called anybody an idiot for disagreeing with me no need to get personal and start name calling.

 

[ansatsusha80]

man why are you calling me an idiot? Did you even read my posts? I’ve commented many times about how I like Sexton, I’ve repeatedly complemented his game and his scoring ability. As I’ve said he’s a good kid and has an amazing work ethic. All I’m saying is I don’t think he’s a legit starter on an elite NBA team, due to his size as an SG. Saying he would be best suited as a prolific 6th man off the bench doesn’t mean I think he’s a bad player. And when have I moved the goalposts? I’ve always been behind Colin

I never called anybody an idiot for disagreeing with me no need to get personal and start name calling.

Keep doubting him...

 

[BigZ94]

Keep doubting him...

Like I just said I’m not.. I’m just pointing out obvious flaws in his game. We have the worst 3 point defence in the league, part of that is due to having a 6,1 guard playing SG. So to have a successful defense he either needs to play PG, which is unlikely due to his poor basketball IQ. Or we get a big point guard like who can guard the opposing teams SG. No matter how hard Collin works and how much better offensively he gets he will get bullied and shot over by opposing shooting guards.. there’s no shame in being a Ginobli type 6th man in a championship team.

Youre basically contradicting yourself by saying he isn’t perfect (like I’m saying) but saying idiots like me and apparently you who don’t think he’s perfect are doubting him

 

[OptimusPrime]

This is where I am with all of the young players. I don't know what the team is going to look like in the future, and obviously the rebuild isn't finished. If they find a playmaking wing somewhere, which they should be looking for anyway, then it changes what the rotations should look like. If they can't find one and can only get 3 and D guys, that changes things too.

What also changes things is how the young guys we have now improve over the years. Okoro is getting more comfortable and looking better as the season goes on, but it's still 30 games into his career. There's no reason to believe he won't develop his game, but we don't know anything for sure.

Garland is shooting it better. He's getting a little more comfortable running the offense. He's still one of the worst defenders in the league. There's improvement on offense, but we don't even know for sure if he'll be able to guard well enough to be a starting player in the league. If his defense doesn't improve, he'll have to be a superstar on offense just to be able to play him. We have time to watch him grow, and he does have some star ability in him, but him developing into that is no given.

With Collin Sexton, he was raw coming into the league. Since then, he has become a markedly better shooter each year, a better passer, a better defender, better off the ball. Nearly every part of his game has shown significant improvement and that hasn't stopped yet. He's an efficient 23 point scorer right now, and his defense and passing and decision making are all constantly improving. That he will continue to develop is a given.

If he gets no better than he is now, maybe that player should eventually be the 6th man on a good team. But he is raising his ceiling every year. I don't even know where he'll end up. I do know they don't have anyone right now that's good enough to play over him.

I also know that I'm not worried about traditional position designations. If you have multiple guys on the floor that can create offense, it doesn't matter what positions they play, and as long the other guys can play off the ball, make shots, and defend, that's all you need.