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Collin Sexton | The Young Bull

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What Resolves First?

  • Collin Sexton's Restricted Free Agency

    Votes: 19 38.8%
  • Baker Mayfield's Tenure with the Browns

    Votes: 30 61.2%

  • Total voters
    49
  • Poll closed .
No,you and everyone else are too quick to give up on Sexton but rarely say a word about the other guard.One minute, Garland is hot and the next he has a bunch a games that's pedestrian but never give him the same criticism as Sexton. Garland was 7/20,Nance and Love along the bench playing like shit Thursday nite but all I saw were people like you blaming Sexton for the loss when he was the only actively playing scoring and playing defense...wtf

I want Sexton gone because this fanbase and media here will always nitpick every single thing about him even though this team has a bunch players can't score,always take plays off on defense or both.

You have Love yelling at Sexton even though he missed over forty games.

A backup point guard that can't shoot to save his life.

The starting point guard that's petrified to shoot even though the team drafted him to do it.

A starting center that gets pushed around way too much.

A backup pf/sf thinks he can't clank a three-point shot just because he's been hot the last couple of games.

A head coach that puts the best player on the team with the bench but somehow everyone want to blame Sexton.




That's my issue,Sexton is the only player on this team that gets pigeonhole by people while they wants to give Okoro and Garland time to develop. It makes no sense at all.

Sexton has improved every season he's been in the league but it's still not good enough for them. I don't understand, this rush to bench a guy that's improving.

When the hell did I blame Sexton for that loss? You're literally not reading any of my messages and then responding. Blocked.
 
I wouldn't bench him this season... The caveat for benching him would be if we get a really good 3 either via the draft or as a free agent. I don't see this team as a competitive one with Prince at the 3 or with both Sexton and Garland starting together.

so, yeah, I certainly don’t think we should pass on a Green type talent if that is what happens in the draft. (Although, all things being perceived equal I would prefer Mobley or Cade based on fit)...but, even then, I’m not making the decision that the backcourt will be Garland-Green with Sexton off the bench. I’d be rolling the ball out and telling the three of them they now have to earn everything. Play D, move the ball within the flow of the offense, and shoot good shots...or have a seat. Necessity is the mother of invention...perhaps if they HAVE to, Sexton could stay focused on D, move the ball, and Garland would give a more consistent effort and shoot when he needs to...
 
so, yeah, I certainly don’t think we should pass on a Green type talent if that is what happens in the draft. (Although, all things being perceived equal I would prefer Mobley or Cade based on fit)...but, even then, I’m not making the decision that the backcourt will be Garland-Green with Sexton off the bench. I’d be rolling the ball out and telling the three of them they now have to earn everything. Play D, move the ball within the flow of the offense, and shoot good shots...or have a seat. Necessity is the mother of invention...perhaps if they HAVE to, Sexton could stay focused on D, move the ball, and Garland would give a more consistent effort and shoot when he needs to...

It all depends on where we draft. But I do think one of Sexton and Garland should be coming off the bench. And in general, consistent scoring off the bench is something people don't really consider when building the bench. Having an elite scorer off the bench would allow us to not go through offensive lulls. It's an odd situation we've got ourselves into because I'd say Garland is probably the 5th best player from that draft, but the front office really boxed the team into a corner. It's hard to fully justify putting either of them on the bench for their offensive capabilities. But it's also hard to justify keeping either of them in the starting lineup because of their size and defensive downfalls. I don't envy the front office at all, and as much as I love to play armchair GM, I'd probably fuck up too :chuckle:

I'm glad there are a lot of good prospects in the lottery. If we draft top 10, someone on the board will be there. I wonder if they'd pick Suggs if he's the best player available. I like Green a lot because of his shot and athleticism. He'll likely go top 4. Cade is the consensus #1 at this point and I think Mobley or Suggs are #2, so that would be tough to swing. But after that, I think it opens up a lot between Green, Kuminga, Barnes, Sengun, Wagner... I wonder if we'd pick Suggs and have him run the offense and keep Sexton in as a 2 but have Suggs defend the 2. Or try to buy back in and get Nix while drafting Kuminga in the lotto... Hopefully we do something this draft. Last draft was quite boring, haha.
 
BUT, I'm arguing for the rationale on why he'd be best suited on the bench. If you're incapable of understanding that, there is 0 point in having a further conversation with you.

I think whether or not he is best suited for the bench is irrelevant at his age/stage of his career. With his trajectory/work ethic, I don't believe he'd accept that as his long-term role, and would not sign with a team that was open about its intent to use him that way. So if you plan on moving him to the bench, you might as well trade him.

He's either going to start, or not be a Cav.
 
He very well may be best suited for the bench in the future.

But right now he's projecting to be a far better scorer than Lou Williams and Jamal Crawford and the guards he normally gets compared with.

Like significantly better than them.
 
I think whether or not he is best suited for the bench is irrelevant at his age/stage of his career. With his trajectory/work ethic, I don't believe he'd accept that as his long-term role, and would not sign with a team that was open about its intent to use him that way. So if you plan on moving him to the bench, you might as well trade him.

He's either going to start, or not be a Cav.

Well the onus is on him to improve his vision then. Or get the team to draft a big point guard he can play next to...

This team cannot be a playoff team with a starting 1-3 of Garland/Sexton/Okoro... It just can't. And with Garland out of the starting lineup, who do we have to get the ball moving? If Sexton chooses to improve on that end, perfect. He's a starter. But at this point the scoring is great, it's just not a holistic need that the team requires as a starter while also being able to compete defensively to a degree. If we get a point forward, he's the right guy in the starting lineup over Garland. If he improves his passing, amazing. But you can see why the vets on the team get frustrated with him. For now, he does one thing, and does it well. Scoring. IF this team wants to make the playoffs and do well there, he needs to be much more. Otherwise everyone is just supporting him for his scoring.

The closest size wise is the Utah Jazz but Donovan is a better defender, Bojan is a great defender who is also a threat from beyond the arc as well as getting his own shot and Gobert is a top defensive center... We COULD go down that avenue, but both guys would have to improve defensively.
 
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The closest size wise is the Utah Jazz but Donovan is a better defender, Bojan is a great defender who is also a threat from beyond the arc as well as getting his own shot and Gobert is a top defensive center... We COULD go down that avenue, but both guys would have to improve defensively.
He's also got better vision, better court awareness, better hops, more strength, a quicker release on his jumper, a longer wingspan (6'10" v 6'7") and, most importantly, he's the best scoring option on the best team in the NBA. And that's not to rip Collin, it's to say that there's a reason Mitchell is a likely All NBA team G this year.

I agree with your assessment. I think that the Cavs are getting down to the wire on decision time for Sexton. If you want to make the playoffs you need some semblance of perimeter defense or an ultra-special talent that can compensate for that (and preferably both). Sexton is a nice scorer, but is he particularly special? If you re-drafted the NBA where would you even take Collin? Top 60? Top 90? These are hard questions, IMO.

The court vision thing is really frustrating. Every time I think he's turned a corner, he seems to regress. The Cavs actually have a few guys who are solid finishers if you hit them in stride, but you need to be able to anticipate it. I know it seems blasphemes but I'd be open to a trade that brought back better fit, even if it was seemingly less talent. Collin is this generations Ben Gordon, and I'm not sure how far a Ben Gordon can really take you.

PlayerPERTS%TRB%AST%STL%BLK%TVO%USG%WS/48
Ben Gordon14.9.5465.216.51.30.413.325.9.078
Collin Sexton14.9.5495.016.61.20.211.726.8.036
 
He's also got better vision, better court awareness, better hops, more strength, a quicker release on his jumper, a longer wingspan (6'10" v 6'7") and, most importantly, he's the best scoring option on the best team in the NBA. And that's not to rip Collin, it's to say that there's a reason Mitchell is a likely All NBA team G this year.

I agree with your assessment. I think that the Cavs are getting down to the wire on decision time for Sexton. If you want to make the playoffs you need some semblance of perimeter defense or an ultra-special talent that can compensate for that (and preferably both). Sexton is a nice scorer, but is he particularly special? If you re-drafted the NBA where would you even take Collin? Top 60? Top 90? These are hard questions, IMO.

The court vision thing is really frustrating. Every time I think he's turned a corner, he seems to regress. The Cavs actually have a few guys who are solid finishers if you hit them in stride, but you need to be able to anticipate it. I know it seems blasphemes but I'd be open to a trade that brought back better fit, even if it was seemingly less talent. Collin is this generations Ben Gordon, and I'm not sure how far a Ben Gordon can really take you.

PlayerPERTS%TRB%AST%STL%BLK%TVO%USG%WS/48
Ben Gordon14.9.5465.216.51.30.413.325.9.078
Collin Sexton14.9.5495.016.61.20.211.726.8.036
Well done using their career numbers so that Sexton's rookie season would drag his career of 2.5 seasons down to the level of Ben Gordon. Sexton's numbers this season at age 22 are a bit different.

PER 17.6
TS% .574
TRB% 4.5
AST% 20.6
STL% 1.5
BLK% 0.3
TOV% 11.1
USG% 29.0
WS/48 .083

It's a ridiculous comparison even if they were similar players on the floor, so unless Sexton really falls off a cliff, I don't think anyone has to worry about him being Ben Gordon.
 
He's also got better vision, better court awareness, better hops, more strength, a quicker release on his jumper, a longer wingspan (6'10" v 6'7") and, most importantly, he's the best scoring option on the best team in the NBA. And that's not to rip Collin, it's to say that there's a reason Mitchell is a likely All NBA team G this year.

I agree with your assessment. I think that the Cavs are getting down to the wire on decision time for Sexton. If you want to make the playoffs you need some semblance of perimeter defense or an ultra-special talent that can compensate for that (and preferably both). Sexton is a nice scorer, but is he particularly special? If you re-drafted the NBA where would you even take Collin? Top 60? Top 90? These are hard questions, IMO.

The court vision thing is really frustrating. Every time I think he's turned a corner, he seems to regress. The Cavs actually have a few guys who are solid finishers if you hit them in stride, but you need to be able to anticipate it. I know it seems blasphemes but I'd be open to a trade that brought back better fit, even if it was seemingly less talent. Collin is this generations Ben Gordon, and I'm not sure how far a Ben Gordon can really take you.

PlayerPERTS%TRB%AST%STL%BLK%TVO%USG%WS/48
Ben Gordon14.9.5465.216.51.30.413.325.9.078
Collin Sexton14.9.5495.016.61.20.211.726.8.036

Basketball is not played in a vacuum, there are teammates on the floor. They impact the game. A LOT.


That is comparing Mitchel THIS year to Collin this year-not even going back to when they were both 22.

Collin has 1 less assist per game even though he handles the ball less and has WAY WAY WAY less shooting surrounding him.

I could only imagine if he had the Jazz floor spacing and Gobert behind him and the consistency of having 1 coach and playing with the same teammates for years.


Collin made some great passes last game only for his center to miss point blank layups. Every time he kicks to a wide open teammate it is clank clank clank.

Collin is not a perfect player-he makes mistakes-but so does every other player in the league.
 
Sexton has improved in passing stats this year over last season. Using nba.com stats, his numbers from last season to this are -

Assists - 3.0 to 4.1
Potential assists - 6.2 to 8.7
Passes per game - 38.7 to 47.6
Assist to pass ratio - 7.6 to 8.6
Assists plus free throw assists plus secondary assists - 4.1 to 5.3
Assists points created - 7.9 to 10.5

Collin will keep working hard to get better. He's not going to be a prototypical PG, but he's not going to be some ball hog who never passes the ball either.
 
the arguments keep repeating themselves. i remember, a few weeks back, i had to post ben gordon's first three years to properly compare sexton's, and also the assist, passes, potential assists, etc for sexton's year on year improvement.

i bet next month someone will do the same just because another set of members trash sexton and pigeonhole him again.
 
Well done using their career numbers so that Sexton's rookie season would drag his career of 2.5 seasons down to the level of Ben Gordon. Sexton's numbers this season at age 22 are a bit different.

PER 17.6
TS% .574
TRB% 4.5
AST% 20.6
STL% 1.5
BLK% 0.3
TOV% 11.1
USG% 29.0
WS/48 .083

It's a ridiculous comparison even if they were similar players on the floor, so unless Sexton really falls off a cliff, I don't think anyone has to worry about him being Ben Gordon.
I also used Ben Gordon's shit final few seasons once Chicago gave up on him being their #1 guy and let him walk. The comp is legit.. it's not my fault you guys don't want to see it.
I could only imagine if he had the Jazz floor spacing and Gobert behind him and the consistency of having 1 coach and playing with the same teammates for years.
I can imagine it, and it would be a mediocre Jazz team wondering why they can't win, because Mitchell is a better player on every level compared to Sexton: physically, mentally, statistically.
Basketball is not played in a vacuum, there are teammates on the floor. They impact the game. A LOT.
Agreed, and Collin's teammates seem to play with better flow, more movement in the offense and just plain looser w/o him.
the arguments keep repeating themselves. i remember, a few weeks back, i had to post ben gordon's first three years to properly compare sexton's, and also the assist, passes, potential assists, etc for sexton's year on year improvement.
Of course they do: because Collin's best role on a winning NBA team is as a 6th man, and the evidence keeps smacking you in the face if you watch the games.

We are at the end of season 3 on Sexton. The Cavs have to make a decision on him next year. They have played him like he's the #1 face of the franchise type guy, which means they will need to pay him like that.. but I don't think he's actually that kind of player. Be honest with yourself, if the Cavs went to trade Collin now, what's your best return?

Collin will keep working hard to get better. He's not going to be a prototypical PG, but he's not going to be some ball hog who never passes the ball either.
I don't doubt Collin's work ethic. It's one of his best traits along with his first step and finishing ability.

It's because he's not a prototypical PG, and he doesn't see the floor or anticipates the defense that makes him best suited as a 6th man-style player. Now, this isn't Sexton's fault, the Cavs forced him into starting from the get go, going so far as to fire a coach because he didn't want to start him as a rookie, but now we can't even look at his best role because he's been made the face of the franchise, and if you are honest with yourself, he's not a 1A building block, but if he's starting, he has to be a near 1A option.

Some of this is compounded by the KPjr shitshow: he was the best SG prospect we had and should have been the guy you paired with Garland and Okoro this year. Some of it is compounded by the Cavs having inconsistent management/leadership at the very top. Going through 18 coaches in these guys 1st 2 seasons is criminal.

I don't know what your best option is, here. After 3 years of watching them, I'm leaning towards finding a role player who fits and maybe some draft capital this offseason for Sexton. the other route is maybe trading Garland, I think you could probably get more for him than Collin. Maybe you could make a S&T for Lonzo Ball with Garland. I just think Ball ends up somewhere else.

I do know this: something's got to give. The perimeter defense is astoundingly bad, we can't keep anyone in-front of us, which is opening up everyone else's man on the help and this is in large part because we are running Sexton and Garland out there at the same time, and neither is a very good defender (and NBA G defense is hard enough with good defensive principles).
 
We are at the end of season 3 on Sexton. The Cavs have to make a decision on him next year. They have played him like he's the #1 face of the franchise type guy, which means they will need to pay him like that.. but I don't think he's actually that kind of player. Be honest with yourself, if the Cavs went to trade Collin now, what's your best return?
dude, i am against the 6th man and ben gordon comparisons. i think he's a starter, but i won't proclaim that he's a franchise player. he's not there yet and if i'm the GM, i won't pay him like one... yet.

so let's put things in context shall we? sexton is the best player on a bad team, even if that bad team has other lottery picks in it, a rising center they just traded for, and an aging all-star. bar none, sexton is the best player on this team. is he your point guard? that's shaky. he can be if he develops, but you can tell it's better if he just do it occasionally. is he the franchise player you go all out for? nahhhh... IF he develops the PG instincts yes, IF he becomes a monster scorer that he becomes big net positive at the 2, yes.

see... a lot of guys see the caveats on why sexton isn't a franchise player and the knee jerk reaction is "make him sixth man". there is a lot of in-between from franchise player and sixth man and a lot of folks are too polarized to see the big middle area.
 
Lots of big playmaking wings in this draft from Cade, to Barnes, to guys with secondary playmaking like Moody.

If we get one of those, it could really change the trajectory. You get that guy to come off the bench for awhile and run the 2nd unit. Then if they improve sufficiently you can replace Garland, Sexton or Okoro with them. Same plan as they had with KPJ.

You either pay Sexton or try to make decision end of next year.

So far all the young guys have gotten better. No reason to make any rash decisions yet. No reason to send anyone to the bench until you can replace them with even a lateral move.

The only guy who could credibly be moved from the bench to the SL IMO is Nance. He would replace either Love or Okoro both of whom I could make an argument for. In my mind, Sexton and Garland are hands down your best guards. Even if you think Okoro is a 2, he still isn't better than either one right now.

Sexton and Garland have little to do with other guys inability to make shots right now. In fact they are the only guys with any consistency. It's the front court that has been poor. Yeah some of that is perimeter defense breakdowns, but there aren't any under 22 set of guards out there doing any better.
 
Sexton is currently 18th in the league in points per game. From year one to year two he added 4 ppg, same so far from year two to year three. If he adds 2 ppg next season he could easily be in the top ten. Looking at the top 20 list you'll see a very impressive group of players. Only 5, including Sexton, are 22 or younger. Looking over his three season stats and advanced stats it's hard to find anything he's not improved on year over year. His usage is up 6.25% this year from last but his scoring is up 16%. His assist% is up 36% from last year and is turnover% is down 4.3%. His TS% and eFG% are up. About the only negative is that his 3-point% is down from 38% to 37%. Can he continue on this trajectory or is this his ceiling? Time will tell, but I look forward to finding out.
 

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