Collin Sexton | The Young Bull

[weepinwillow]

dude, i am against the 6th man and ben gordon comparisons. i think he's a starter, but i won't proclaim that he's a franchise player. he's not there yet and if i'm the GM, i won't pay him like one... yet.

so let's put things in context shall we? sexton is the best player on a bad team, even if that bad team has other lottery picks in it, a rising center they just traded for, and an aging all-star. bar none, sexton is the best player on this team. is he your point guard? that's shaky. he can be if he develops, but you can tell it's better if he just do it occasionally. is he the franchise player you go all out for? nahhhh... IF he develops the PG instincts yes, IF he becomes a monster scorer that he becomes big net positive at the 2, yes.

see... a lot of guys see the caveats on why sexton isn't a franchise player and the knee jerk reaction is "make him sixth man". there is a lot of in-between from franchise player and sixth man and a lot of folks are too polarized to see the big middle area.

You won't be able to make that choice on paying him, Collin will demand max money as your "best player", and if you don't meet him, or come damn close, he will inevitably "bet on himself" at which point you've lost your leverage.

Yes, the bet is if he develops PG instincts.. which probably means you need to cut ties with Garland, and/or find a better match for Sexton defensively. I just don't believe Sexton develops those instincts. I see him as a 6th man because he plays a tunnel vision style of offense, and that could be leveraged with a 2nd unit, vs starters where you typically want to establish more guys.

Ben Gordon was a good player, too. People think the comp is mean or degrading, but Ben played a similar game on successful Bulls teams, but ultimately was limited by his height and length.

 

[roozy]

You won't be able to make that choice on paying him, Collin will demand max money as your "best player", and if you don't meet him, or come damn close, he will inevitably "bet on himself" at which point you've lost your leverage.

Yes, the bet is if he develops PG instincts.. which probably means you need to cut ties with Garland, and/or find a better match for Sexton defensively. I just don't believe Sexton develops those instincts. I see him as a 6th man because he plays a tunnel vision style of offense, and that could be leveraged with a 2nd unit, vs starters where you typically want to establish more guys.

Ben Gordon was a good player, too. People think the comp is mean or degrading, but Ben played a similar game on successful Bulls teams, but ultimately was limited by his height and length.

Sexton getting a max contract is vomit inducing. His type of play is not conducive to winning. Can you imagine his type of offense in the playoffs? He'd be shutdown offensively.

 

[weepinwillow]

Sexton getting a max contract is vomit inducing. His type of play is not conducive to winning. Can you imagine his type of offense in the playoffs? He'd be shutdown offensively.

It's worrying. And it's on the horizon. We are about to run out of options, and while Collin scores extremely well, there's a good deal of it that looks like empty-calories. I don't even know where you could deal him if you wanted to go that route.

Maybe OKC could use him next to SGA? The Lakers would love him off the bench, but they have zero assets. Spurs have a bigger PG they could pair Collin with, could you make a Keldon Johnson deal for Collin work? Would the Spurs even want that? Could it be Vassell? He fits the prototype 2 in theory.

More likely, some sort of draft day trade that includes pick swapping if anything. It's an interesting thought experiment, because for as good as Sexton scores for the Cavs, it's hard to think of another NBA team that would give a somewhat high value asset in return.

 

[daytripper]

I will say for Sexton that the kid is all about basketball. The Heat are now "concerned about Tyler Herro's personal life"

Report: Heat concerned about Tyler Herro’s personal life

Heat guard Tyler Herro played like a star as a rookie in the 2020 playoffs.

sports.yahoo.com

At last that's one thing the Cavs should never have to worry about with Sexton.

 

[ryanf]

You won't be able to make that choice on paying him, Collin will demand max money as your "best player", and if you don't meet him, or come damn close, he will inevitably "bet on himself" at which point you've lost your leverage.

Yes, the bet is if he develops PG instincts.. which probably means you need to cut ties with Garland, and/or find a better match for Sexton defensively. I just don't believe Sexton develops those instincts. I see him as a 6th man because he plays a tunnel vision style of offense, and that could be leveraged with a 2nd unit, vs starters where you typically want to establish more guys.

Ben Gordon was a good player, too. People think the comp is mean or degrading, but Ben played a similar game on successful Bulls teams, but ultimately was limited by his height and length.

Too many hypotheticals about the future and pigeon holing. I'm wasting electrons just letting this conversation to nowhere continue.

 

[CavsFan07]

I will say for Sexton that the kid is all about basketball. The Heat are now "concerned about Tyler Herro's personal life"

Report: Heat concerned about Tyler Herro’s personal life

Heat guard Tyler Herro played like a star as a rookie in the 2020 playoffs.

sports.yahoo.com

At last that's one thing the Cavs should never have to worry about with Sexton.

He's a 21 year old millionaire living in Miami.... I wouldn't expect him to be making the best decisions... would you?

Also, have you seen his girlfriend? If not it's worth a Google... Hard to worry about a kid's personal life when he's got that to come home to.

(speaking more directly to the article title and not saying the article states your feelings on the matter)

 

[daytripper]

^Yeah definitely Herro seems more about wanting to live the celebrity lifestyle than actually play basketball. Tristan got the same way too after he hooked up with a celebrity but at least he helped us win a ring first. I wouldn't want that kind of young guy on the Cavs. Sexton is just the antithesis spending all his time in the gym trying to improve. Fans constantly want to paint him as the scapegoat for every loss even though the vast majority of issues are with the rest of the roster.

 

[Derek]

Herro's biggest problem is that people overrated him after a playoff run where he was merely solid.

Now, he has these wholly unrealistic expectations to live up to.

 

[weepinwillow]

I will say for Sexton that the kid is all about basketball. The Heat are now "concerned about Tyler Herro's personal life"

Report: Heat concerned about Tyler Herro’s personal life

Heat guard Tyler Herro played like a star as a rookie in the 2020 playoffs.

sports.yahoo.com

At last that's one thing the Cavs should never have to worry about with Sexton.

It's true.. that's what makes Collin such a tough nut to crack. He's clearly a gym rat, loves the game, works on it non-stop, and plays with a giant chip on his shoulder.

Too many hypotheticals about the future and pigeon holing. I'm wasting electrons just letting this conversation to nowhere continue.

What are the hypotheticals?

That Collin will expect max or close to max money on his next contract? He's been made the face of the franchise and been given free reign on the offense. That kind of MO typically gets a max slot contract on a team. I guess it's hypothetical, but it's hardly a reach.

That Collin won't add the kind of feel you need to run the offense? I think it's more of a hypothetical that he does develop those instincts to the level you would want given how much he handles the ball.

That his talents and playing style are better served as a 6th man of the year candidate? There's a decent amount of guys who fit his MO that made an impact in that role.. and why is it "pigeon holing" to suggest it vs the pigeon hole of having to be a starting 2 G on a micro-unit backcourt simply because his box-score looks good?

It's interesting that nobody does the thought experiment on a trade of Sexton. Like: what do you think his actual value is around the NBA? In theory you should be able to get a good haul, yes? You have a young player, on a rookie deal with team controls after who puts up gaudy offensive numbers.

Hopefully this draft clears things up. If they land a Cade or Green I think it solidifies what you are doing, and maybe allows the Cavs to look at Garland and Sexton more clearly. Neither of them are likely 1A building blocks, both could help you be a winning organization with the right kind of upper level talent as your "star" player. If not, I worry that we are looking at some firings and big shake up once again.

 

[daytripper]

Herro's biggest problem is that people overrated him after a playoff run where he was merely solid.

Now, he has these wholly unrealistic expectations to live up to.

The Heat were the most disciplined team in the bubble which got them all the way to the Finals..at least that's my perspective. The Heat we are seeing this season is the reality of that team.
With that said I think Collin would've been back to the gym the day after losing the Finals and not chasing around instagram models. Will Sexton spend most of his career in Cleveland? I don't know but the Cavs will need to find guys with that mindset who are more concerned about basketball than cultivating a brand.

 

[ryanf]

It's interesting that nobody does the thought experiment on a trade of Sexton. Like: what do you think his actual value is around the NBA? In theory you should be able to get a good haul, yes? You have a young player, on a rookie deal with team controls after who puts up gaudy offensive numbers.

i'll entertain you on this one. let's stick with the east for now. do you think the heat won't trade for sexton for herro and robinson to have dragic's replacement and have a player that can create on his own next to butler? how about the sixers trading ben simmons for sexton + fillers so they have a lead guard that's a threat from outside and allow embiid to operate inside and out?

 

[Derek]

i'll entertain you on this one. let's stick with the east for now. do you think the heat won't trade for sexton for herro and robinson to have dragic's replacement and have a player that can create on his own next to butler? how about the sixers trading ben simmons for sexton + fillers so they have a lead guard that's a threat from outside and allow embiid to operate inside and out?

I don't think either of those teams would make those trades although the Heat one isn't far off, I don't think

 

[fncavsfan]

I can imagine it, and it would be a mediocre Jazz team wondering why they can't win, because Mitchell is a better player on every level compared to Sexton: physically, mentally, statistically.


Of course they do: because Collin's best role on a winning NBA team is as a 6th man, and the evidence keeps smacking you in the face if you watch the games.

Physically-your opinion
Mentally-your opinion
Statistically-you are wrong

Player Comparison: Collin Sexton vs. Donovan Mitchell | Stathead.com

Player Comparison: Collin Sexton vs. Donovan Mitchell

stathead.com

Let's compare both as 22 yr old's. Lets also remember Mitchell has played with WAY better teammates and at this point one coach who is clearly better than 4 coaches.

Almost every single stat is very very close-many of which Collin is the leader.

More spacing and better shooting teammates would make Collin a BETTER player-there is zero doubt on that. It is common sense actually. Give an elite super fast guard more space to get to the rim-and he will be more efficient.

Also the Jazz are 4-1 this season when Mitchell doesn't play-only loss they have Gobert and Conley sat also. That is a great TEAM.

Here is the thing--I think Mitchell is a great player-but not a superstar. I think Collin is on his way to being a great player--can he become a superstar? I don't know yet. But if I am wagering, he will be an all star at some point.

Compare assist rates with Mitchell at 22 and Collin. Expected assists, etc.

Players Passing

A table featuring passing information for each player in the league based on selected filters.

www.nba.com

Here is what a 6th man is:

Player Comparison: Collin Sexton vs. Lou Williams | Stathead.com

Player Comparison: Collin Sexton vs. Lou Williams

stathead.com

That is Lou Williams 10th season in the league-Collins 3rd in the comparison. Collin is so much more efficient shooting the ball than Lou ever was.

Here is another 6th man for you:

Player Comparison: Collin Sexton vs. Jamal Crawford | Stathead.com

Player Comparison: Collin Sexton vs. Jamal Crawford

stathead.com

 

[Derek]

Donovan Mitchell is like the 4th best player on the Jazz.

If we get to a point where Sexton is even our 3rd best player, we'll be looking pretty good.

 

[Wham with the Right Hand]

How about this one:

Player Comparison: Collin Sexton vs. Jordan Clarkson vs. Lou Williams | Stathead.com

Player Comparison: Collin Sexton vs. Jordan Clarkson vs. Lou Williams

stathead.com