Collin Sexton | The Young Bull

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Ozone

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Actually I agree that Garland overdribbles looking for the pass, while Sexton overdribbles looking for the shot. It's a big reason they aren't a great fit.
His feel is limited to scoring. That's not feel for the game, it's feel for scoring. Understanding what the other 4 guys are doing and going to do and how the defense will react to your movement and your teammates movement is feel for the game. The anticipation of the play just isn't there.
The issue with Collin is that he ice's out his team when he's NOT called on to do so.. it's just what he does and it's going to end up holding back the Cavs from getting over the rebuild hump.
Sexton doesn't feel the weakside of the offense. It's been a struggle since his rookie year. Every time he seems to turn the corner, he reverts back. For all the gaudy numbers, the W/L numbers are basically stagnant with him putting them up.
It's fine. We will see. My guess is we re-sign Collin to a huge extension because we kind of have to now, and then this thread turns into a "how do you dump this contract" thread in 2 years when they've fired Altman and JBB, and Dan Gilbert has put his kid in as President of Basketball Ops. I'll be fine being wrong, but I don't think I will be.
Right now I have Collin as the 6th best asset on the team behind Garland, Okoro, the draft pick, Allen and Nance. Allen will drop after his contract and the pick could drop or rise for obvious reasons. Collin will fall as an asset after the contract extension.
You're saying the same kind of thing I have been hearing for years about Devin Booker. Sexton is better than you know bbiq wise, and what you are worried about, is a misunderstanding of his selfishness as a first option scorer, not a lack of feel for the game. Hell the damn coach wants him to pass more,saying he needs to continue to improve at it. Yet says those things right after praising him for doing what he needed him to do: to go score with reckless havoc cause he got nobody else to use, or that can be relied on to do it besides an injury prone veteran pf.
If you want to say he needs to pass more and stop forcing, it so teams won't be able to defend him as well. Good. Even though he still gets buckets lol I can understand that take. Surmising however that there is a lack of understanding of basketball in general, as a starting guard in the NBA, is a strangely audacious view against him as a pro, and one that makes me think, you have no confidence this org knows what they are doing, if that were true, which it is not.
No guard in the NBA . None are trying to learn how to play basketball. They do however have to refine the weakness' of their games to become dominant and Sexton is on track to be just that.
 

roozy

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Also: I'm not using the Curry/Monte or Rose/Gordon comps as true trajectory of Garland. I am using them as markers where in some ways the one player was not a compliment to the other player and the team needed to pick a horse and move on. Cavs went through this with KI and Waiters too. They should have moved on from Dion way sooner than they did (like on draft night, but whatever). Unfortunately for the Cavs neither Sexton or Garland is an all-world talent (like Curry, Rose-pre injury or KI). Both are good basketball players with some obvious flaws. And it's getting close to time to make a decision on one of them, imo.
I'm of the opinion that Sexton isn't a very good basketball player. His feel for the game is atrocious and anyone that watches basketball enough knows his type of scoring won't work in the playoffs. He's the 2nd worst defender behind Love on the team due to constantly being lost on rotations. His on the court metrics are ugly and any team paying him a max contract will find him hard to move.
 

Ozone

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I'm of the opinion that Sexton isn't a very good basketball player. His feel for the game is atrocious and anyone that watches basketball enough knows his type of scoring won't work in the playoffs. He's the 2nd worst defender behind Love on the team due to constantly being lost on rotations. His on the court metrics are ugly and any team paying him a max contract will find him hard to move.
o_O I love his game myself. He sees an opening and scores. simple simon. you don't need to have some masterful passing system to create offense when you have his tools. Not when you are good at breaking down defenders like he can. Bad basketball is the kind where the ball never finds the basket, not just the one where everyone touches the ball before it doesn't find the basket.
 

inliner311

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o_O I love his game myself. He sees an opening and scores. simple simon. you don't need to have some masterful passing system to create offense when you have his tools. Not when you are good at breaking down defenders like he can. Bad basketball is the kind where the ball never finds the basket, not just the one where everyone touches the ball before it doesn't find the basket.

I agree with all of this. Sexton is an effective scorer and I don't think that's something that is hard to build around. Maybe he isn't a #1 option type player but if he is our #2 option, a competent coach can figure out how use him effectively.

The lack of talent is what's really hurting the Cavs right now. With more talent the coaches can piece together more viable lineups and not have to play Sexton and Garland so many minutes. Right now if we even want to stay in games Sexton and Garland have to be on the floor for heavy minutes.

If Okoro takes a jump offensively and we get a good scoring wing in the draft, the options start to open up a bit more. If we pick up another draft pick and draft a junior or senior tall PG, I think we will have alot more to work with.
 

ryanf

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I'm of the opinion that Sexton isn't a very good basketball player. His feel for the game is atrocious and anyone that watches basketball enough knows his type of scoring won't work in the playoffs. He's the 2nd worst defender behind Love on the team due to constantly being lost on rotations. His on the court metrics are ugly and any team paying him a max contract will find him hard to move.
sexton's scoring is what will be effective in the playoffs when teams take away your system and standard plays. what will be left is your main guy trying to create offense for the team, and sexton has been very good at that.

this is the reason why system teams such as those coached by d'antoni does not make it very far in the playoffs.
 

ansatsusha80

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I'm of the opinion that Sexton isn't a very good basketball player. His feel for the game is atrocious and anyone that watches basketball enough knows his type of scoring won't work in the playoffs. He's the 2nd worst defender behind Love on the team due to constantly being lost on rotations. His on the court metrics are ugly and any team paying him a max contract will find him hard to move.


Someone already broke down Sexton's defense few pages back. I suggest you read it. I swear people will say this narrative a million times until it's true.

Will Sexton be an All-Pro in his career,nope but Im tired of people saying he plays bad defense.

Sexton plays very good on-ball defense,matter of fact,he plays bigger than his height half of the time. Sexton's issue isn't on-ball it's off-ball. It's either the scheme,his teammates rotating poorly and him trying to make a defensive move when he should just stay on his man.
 

benchplayer

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sexton's scoring is what will be effective in the playoffs when teams take away your system and standard plays. what will be left is your main guy trying to create offense for the team, and sexton has been very good at that.

this is the reason why system teams such as those coached by d'antoni does not make it very far in the playoffs.
^This

Game 7 with a few seconds left on the clock and your down, Whos hands are you gonna put the ball in?

IMO, Mental and physical toughness is something that can make a player invaluable, and Sexton has both. Ask yourself how many games have sexton missed in his 3 years in the league? Also, how many times have you seen sexton pouting, and hanging his head when things don't go his way?

Sexton is averaging 24pts and 4ast and he's still improving his game. IMO that makes him the alpha on this team.

You're not gonna find too many 6'1" guys with the balls to try this!

 
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weepinwillow

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Game 7 with a few seconds left on the clock and your down, Whos hands are you gonna put the ball in?
This is great, except you'll never get there with Collin and Garland in the same backcourt and averaging the usage they do.

Hopefully we luck into a better option via the draft or development.
 

Rich

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Also: I'm not using the Curry/Monte or Rose/Gordon comps as true trajectory of Garland. I am using them as markers where in some ways the one player was not a compliment to the other player and the team needed to pick a horse and move on. Cavs went through this with KI and Waiters too. They should have moved on from Dion way sooner than they did (like on draft night, but whatever). Unfortunately for the Cavs neither Sexton or Garland is an all-world talent (like Curry, Rose-pre injury or KI). Both are good basketball players with some obvious flaws. And it's getting close to time to make a decision on one of them, imo.

But again, the difference is it was clear right away that Kyrie was a better player.

He was better in Dion's first year. And way, way better in Dion's 2nd year.

So you're trying to say we have the same type of situation yet the guy you're saying is the one we should choose is NOT the dude having the better seasons so far.

And I get that you think he will and are hoping he does, but that's not happened yet.


So I get that this isn't to say Garland is gonna be Kyrie or Curry, but I guess my point is he hasn't come close to clearly separating himself from Sexton at this point. Not the way that Kyrie had from Dion.

And not the way that Curry was already every bit the player that Monta was in 4 less seasons.


Taking a step back from the season, I don't think Sexton/Garland are a long-term pairing in the backcourt. Sexton, while having good percentages shooting 3s, doesn't shoot enough of them. And it's not because it's just a stylistic thing he can change. It's because he has small hands which creates a really slow release and I'm not sure if he can change that. So he really does, generally, need to be wide open and given a decent amount of time to get set.

Garland is tiny and he plays tiny. He's the worst defender on the team and his lack of fight makes me question just how high his ceiling can be. At his size he really needs to play with a chip on his shoulder and he just doesn't.

And those are the two big things keeping them from having a chance of being like Portland's backcourt. Sexton just can't shoot like McCollum and Garland doesn't have nearly the fight of Lillard.

I very much hope this coming season one of them clearly asserts themselves as a future star and makes it easier to let the other one go.
 
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Willard513

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But again, the difference is it was clear right away that Kyrie was a better player.

He was better in Dion's first year. And way, way better in Dion's 2nd year.

So you're trying to say we have the same type of situation yet the guy you're saying is the one we should choose is NOT the dude having the better seasons so far.

And I get that you think he will and are hoping he does, but that's not happened yet.


So I get that this isn't to say Garland is gonna be Kyrie or Curry, but I guess my point is he hasn't come close to clearly separating himself from Sexton at this point. Not the way that Kyrie had from Dion.

And not the way that Curry was already every bit the player that Monta was in 4 less seasons.


Taking a step back from the season, I don't think Sexton/Garland are a long-term pairing in the backcourt. Sexton, while having good percentages shooting 3s, doesn't shoot enough of them. And it's not because it's just a stylistic thing he can change. It's because he has small hands which creates a really slow release and I'm not sure if he can change that. So he really does, generally, need to be wide open and given a decent amount of time to get set.

Garland is tiny and he plays tiny. He's the worst defender on the team and his lack of fight makes me question just how high his ceiling can be. At his size he really needs to play with a chip on his shoulder and he just doesn't.

And those are the two big things keeping them from having a chance of being like Portland's backcourt. Sexton just can't shoot like McCollum and Garland doesn't have nearly the fight of Lillard.

I very much hope this coming season one of them clearly asserts themselves as a future star and makes it easier to let the other one go.
Bear with me, this is going to be a long winded answer and not just a direct reply to you @Rich

I don’t disagree with your overall take but I have to say, the bolded is just blatantly incorrect. The stats show Darius has a 112.4 drtg on the season(which is horrendous) and Collin sexton had a 114.0.

collin pre-all star:111.1
Collin post all star:117.4

darius pre all star:115.1
Darius post all star: 109.2

Collin is still a worse defender than Darius at this point in their careers. I can be convinced of Collins fit on offense but the numbers say he is worse than Darius defensively by a 2pt margin.


Even when taking into acct when they missed their prospective games (darius played 28 between March-may and Collin played 31) his defensive numbers got better as the season wore on and with less talent around. Collin’s didn’t.

So to bring the conversation full circle about Collin and the decision the front office has to make. A couple of factors are at play…

First, he is an already elite midrange/slashing guard offensively. I admire that about him, I really do. And he has an incredible work ethic and attitude that is infectious. But the fact is he is just a lower IQ player because he is wired one way, score. On a 24 win team, that’s fine and admirable. Like many have posted, someone has to score to keep us even in games, and he is incredible at it. But his defense is horrendous off ball and below avg even on ball with good length.

When I talk about IQ, that’s what I mean when I say Collin is lacking in general bball iq. When we look at the team big picture, and when we expect them to take a leap collectively in win/losses. Defensively, if Collin is going to be the long-term 2, he needs to be a Jute holiday level defender since they have similar size/length. They are going to need Collin to do more than score if they are going to invest max money in him. Even when we had a great start to the season, Collin misses easy passes constantly. He has a 6’7-8” wingspan so his defensive numbers should be better than darius’ and shouldn’t be this drastic but he just isn’t an impact defender at this point.

Either way, the draft is going to decide their fate. If they take a cade/Barnes point forward? Keep them both and roll it. If they draft Green? Collin is most likely headed to the bench by end of next season. If they take Suggs? Then it gets really confusing. Kuminga/Mobley? Put them at the 4 and run it back. The front office won’t have any decision either way, but Collins trade value is only going to go down the longer they wait this out.

In conclusion, what do we have? An undersized 2 guard with small hands, doesn’t shoot enough threes to be an elite offensive threat to mitigate his IQ and size short comings, can’t run an offense efficiently, and is one of the worst defenders in the league at his position.

To put it bluntly, I saw it mentioned in a spencer Davies article that he isn’t even watching the playoffs and is getting shots up and studying his tape in the off-season. I think it would do him much more good to watch guys like Chris Paul, devin booker, Donovan Mitchell, and other 1-2 guards run an efficient offense in the playoffs because his scoring will always be there. I can’t justify paying an undersized 2 who can’t run the offense or play avg defense a max, The difference between Collin being a 2nd-3rd option on a good playoff team and 4th-5th is between the ears.
 

daddywags

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Bear with me, this is going to be a long winded answer and not just a direct reply to you @Rich

I don’t disagree with your overall take but I have to say, the bolded is just blatantly incorrect. The stats show Darius has a 112.4 drtg on the season(which is horrendous) and Collin sexton had a 114.0.

collin pre-all star:111.1
Collin post all star:117.4

darius pre all star:115.1
Darius post all star: 109.2

Collin is still a worse defender than Darius at this point in their careers. I can be convinced of Collins fit on offense but the numbers say he is worse than Darius defensively by a 2pt margin.


Even when taking into acct when they missed their prospective games (darius played 28 between March-may and Collin played 31) his defensive numbers got better as the season wore on and with less talent around. Collin’s didn’t.

So to bring the conversation full circle about Collin and the decision the front office has to make. A couple of factors are at play…

First, he is an already elite midrange/slashing guard offensively. I admire that about him, I really do. And he has an incredible work ethic and attitude that is infectious. But the fact is he is just a lower IQ player because he is wired one way, score. On a 24 win team, that’s fine and admirable. Like many have posted, someone has to score to keep us even in games, and he is incredible at it. But his defense is horrendous off ball and below avg even on ball with good length.

When I talk about IQ, that’s what I mean when I say Collin is lacking in general bball iq. When we look at the team big picture, and when we expect them to take a leap collectively in win/losses. Defensively, if Collin is going to be the long-term 2, he needs to be a Jute holiday level defender since they have similar size/length. They are going to need Collin to do more than score if they are going to invest max money in him. Even when we had a great start to the season, Collin misses easy passes constantly. He has a 6’7-8” wingspan so his defensive numbers should be better than darius’ and shouldn’t be this drastic but he just isn’t an impact defender at this point.

Either way, the draft is going to decide their fate. If they take a cade/Barnes point forward? Keep them both and roll it. If they draft Green? Collin is most likely headed to the bench by end of next season. If they take Suggs? Then it gets really confusing. Kuminga/Mobley? Put them at the 4 and run it back. The front office won’t have any decision either way, but Collins trade value is only going to go down the longer they wait this out.

In conclusion, what do we have? An undersized 2 guard with small hands, doesn’t shoot enough threes to be an elite offensive threat to mitigate his IQ and size short comings, can’t run an offense efficiently, and is one of the worst defenders in the league at his position.

To put it bluntly, I saw it mentioned in a spencer Davies article that he isn’t even watching the playoffs and is getting shots up and studying his tape in the off-season. I think it would do him much more good to watch guys like Chris Paul, devin booker, Donovan Mitchell, and other 1-2 guards run an efficient offense in the playoffs because his scoring will always be there. I can’t justify paying an undersized 2 who can’t run the offense or play avg defense a max, The difference between Collin being a 2nd-3rd option on a good playoff team and 4th-5th is between the ears.

Defensive rating is a tricky thing. At ESPN they have what they call "Real Plus-Minus" which supposedly takes into account teammates and opponents on the court as well as "other factors." In their ratings, Sexton is a +0.69 defensive rpm, and Garland is -0.71. So this metric sees Sexton as quite a bit better defensively than Garland. Take it FWIW.
 

Willard513

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Defensive rating is a tricky thing. At ESPN they have what they call "Real Plus-Minus" which supposedly takes into account teammates and opponents on the court as well as "other factors." In their ratings, Sexton is a +0.69 defensive rpm, and Garland is -0.71. So this metric sees Sexton as quite a bit better defensively than Garland. Take it FWIW.
That is a valid point for sure but they also list Collin sexton as a PG when he clearly wasn’t the PG. I also don’t know what they listed as “other factors” so I didn’t take RPM into acct.

I don’t expect Darius to ever be a good defender, I just don’t think he was the worst defender on the team. Collin should be significantly better since I’m constantly told height isn’t as big of a deal because he has good length but he just isn’t for some reason. I’d even say they were both the worst but one shouldn’t be as much of a liability given his better length and another year in the league.
 

The Human Q-Tip

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That is a valid point for sure but they also list Collin sexton as a PG when he clearly wasn’t the PG. I also don’t know what they listed as “other factors” so I didn’t take RPM into acct.

I don’t expect Darius to ever be a good defender, I just don’t think he was the worst defender on the team. Collin should be significantly better since I’m constantly told height isn’t as big of a deal because he has good length but he just isn’t for some reason. I’d even say they were both the worst but one shouldn’t be as much of a liability given his better length and another year in the league.

Collin does have better length/strength, but he's also guarding the longer/stronger guy. My guess is that his numbers would look better if he was guarding PG's as is Garland.
 

weepinwillow

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But again, the difference is it was clear right away that Kyrie was a better player.

He was better in Dion's first year. And way, way better in Dion's 2nd year.

So you're trying to say we have the same type of situation yet the guy you're saying is the one we should choose is NOT the dude having the better seasons so far.

And I get that you think he will and are hoping he does, but that's not happened yet.


So I get that this isn't to say Garland is gonna be Kyrie or Curry, but I guess my point is he hasn't come close to clearly separating himself from Sexton at this point. Not the way that Kyrie had from Dion.

And not the way that Curry was already every bit the player that Monta was in 4 less seasons.


Taking a step back from the season, I don't think Sexton/Garland are a long-term pairing in the backcourt. Sexton, while having good percentages shooting 3s, doesn't shoot enough of them. And it's not because it's just a stylistic thing he can change. It's because he has small hands which creates a really slow release and I'm not sure if he can change that. So he really does, generally, need to be wide open and given a decent amount of time to get set.

Garland is tiny and he plays tiny. He's the worst defender on the team and his lack of fight makes me question just how high his ceiling can be. At his size he really needs to play with a chip on his shoulder and he just doesn't.

And those are the two big things keeping them from having a chance of being like Portland's backcourt. Sexton just can't shoot like McCollum and Garland doesn't have nearly the fight of Lillard.

I very much hope this coming season one of them clearly asserts themselves as a future star and makes it easier to let the other one go.
I think Garland has a role as a starting NBA PG on a good team. He plays with his head up, he looks to get guys the ball.. he over dribbles which can get him into trouble and he isn't strong enough to be a good defender, but he doesn't get out of position.

I think Sexton has a role as the leader of a second unit on a good NBA team. He plays downhill, he attacks constantly and puts pressure on the defense. He doesn't get his teammates involved, he will force shots and can get himself in trouble over-penetrating looking for a shot.

Both guys are good, and imo, both guys are miscast. IMO, Garland isn't a 1A or 1B option on a good team, he's a facilitator to that player and then he's an outlet for the open shot, as well as general game-flow manager in the offense. IMO, Sexton isn't a 1A or 1B option on a good team, he's the guy you bring in to go get buckets off the bench, and when your team's offense just isn't going.

The problem is the clock is ticking to get them both cast correctly, and I just don't think Sexton can be cast correctly in Cleveland. Which is really a Dan Gilbert problem. He wanted to force Sexton into the starting group as a rookie, re-cast the team around him.. now he's the face of the franchise, is ready for an extension and his best role is that of a super-sub (and I know, at least 65% if not more of you don't agree with me that that's his best role, to which I say we are at an impasse on that front).
 
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