Derek Jeter’s HALL OF FAME discussion

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col63onel

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The whole "first ballot HoF" thing is dumb to me anyways.
Agree.

I get that MLB doesn't want a crowded field going in and wants each member to be able to shine. So they cap it at 5 guys a year so no one gets overshadowed. And if theres a year where more than 5 guys are HOF worthy, then at least one gets bumped to the next year. If that is what it takes to keep the ceremonies special, that's fine, IMO.

I also get that as time goes on, we understand more about the game and a player who you didn't think was worthy actually really had a strong case all along. Knowledge changes, so opinions change. That's also fine.

But the idea of "he deserves to be in the HOF but not right away" makes no sense. You either are a HOF or you aren't.

Anyways, I also agree that Jeter was really good, and his main attribute was being good for an absurdly long amount of time.

Here's his rank for bWAR amongst his own teammates, starting in 96

7
5
1
1
3
4
9
7
4
8
2
6
6
1
11
15
10
injured
26

He had 18 full seasons (discount 95 and 13 when he played about 30 games total). In 10 of them, he wasn't even top 5 on his own team. He finished in the top 10 in the AL 4 times (1st, 2nd, 6th, 7th). For comparison, Mike Trout has finished 1st or 2nd in WAR in the AL every full year of his career (8 years), save one year he finished a lowly 6th (he had a 6.6 WAR that year, which is his worst buy a full win, but is the same as Jeter's 3rd best year. Trout's worst year out of 8 is equal to Jeter's 3rd best year out 18).

So I 100% agree with the notion that Jeter was really good player for an extremely long period of time, but was never great for more than a handful of years.
 
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Derek

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Omar’s better
The thing Omar has going against him is that everything he did offensively is based solely off volume. He was an objectively below-average hitter his entire career, and his glove just wasn't quite Ozzie's.

However, Luis Aparicio is in, and that's a damn good comp for Omar.
 

Urban

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Omar is at a pretty good percentage with 7 years of eligibility left. History says he will get in, but we'll see
 

Out of the Rafters at the Q

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The thing Omar has going against him is that everything he did offensively is based solely off volume. He was an objectively below-average hitter his entire career, and his glove just wasn't quite Ozzie's.

However, Luis Aparicio is in, and that's a damn good comp for Omar.
I think Omar's a case where you have to look past his advanced stats. Being the definitive defensive player at C, CF or SS for a generation should get you into the hall. For the 90's-00's generation, that would be Omar/Pudge and "insert CF here (Junior if he wasn't hurt... but might still be that guy).

Then, top that with how Omar revolutionized the game--from fielding on the backhand being taught, to players from Venezuela having an easier way making it to the major leagues.

Combine all that with a career that's already borderline HOF worthy, and he should no doubt be in.
 

Obscured By Clouds

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Pudge was just as good with the bat as he was behind the plate.
 

The Human Q-Tip

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The thing Omar has going against him is that everything he did offensively is based solely off volume. He was an objectively below-average hitter his entire career, and his glove just wasn't quite Ozzie's.

However, Luis Aparicio is in, and that's a damn good comp for Omar.
Is that for all players, or just among shortstops?
 

sportscoach

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Omar fo me was an earlier style of ball player in an ERA of power hitters when it comes to his bat.

Now his numbers hitting wise are almost Hall of Fame, but his gold gloves make him a Hall of Fame, and to me he also contributed a lot to attract fans in a sense. People liked watching him play SS, so he deserves to get in but in our current system, he isn’t a first ballot hall of famer though.

Now when it comes to Jeter, hitting wise for a SS, he is a Hall of Famer, he sincerely put up almost 200 hits a season for a ton of years. Very few people get to 3,000 hits plus his career ops was .817 which says he played above average hitting almost his entire career. Now personally I think his defense was a bit over rated but that being said, he always stayed within his ability and made very little errors in a sense. Ranged lacked a little bit, but he never went outside what he knew he could do
 

kidduck

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Jayson Stark on Hall of Fame ballot


Omar Vizquel

OK, here comes the portion of this column that is going to lead the league in What the hell are you thinking, Stark?! tweets, comments and emails. Why would I dare to argue that Omar Vizquel was historically great? I don’t mind telling you why. It’s what we’re here for.

Omar Vizquel was the most sure-handed shortstop in the history of baseball.

That’s why.

There are so many ways I could make that case. But I’m just going to roll out my favorite Vizquel tidbit of all time:

Seasons of 140-plus games with 5 errors or fewer
(all SS since 1900)

Omar Vizquel: 3
All other shortstops combined: 3

I unearthed that astonishing nugget when I was writing my “Stark Truth” book over a decade ago. It still blows my mind every time I repeat it — because it hasn’t changed.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know we have many, many cool, next-level metrics that measure defense in more sophisticated ways than, say, errors. Got it. I know all about it. I’m not arguing that Vizquel was better than Ozzie Smith, or a better defender than every shortstop except Ozzie Smith, or whatever advanced metric you’d like to cite to prove to me I’m nuts. I think I have a good feel for what Vizquel wasn’t, if that helps calm you down.

But I also got to watch Vizquel play in the big leagues for nearly a quarter-century. It tells me a lot about him that there were teams that wanted to let him play for nearly a quarter-century. It tells me what his peers thought of him that they handed him 11 Gold Glove Awards. It isn’t lost on me that there are only two other players in history with as many hits (2,877) and Gold Gloves as Vizquel — and their names are Willie Mays and Roberto Clemente — even though some people would dismiss that as just “compiling.”

I’ve thought about this a lot. And you know what the Omar Vizquel debate feels like to me? It falls into a really strange category. It’s about a bunch of people using numbers to try to convince me that my eyes didn’t see what I thought they saw.

And what I thought I saw was a player with spectacular hands, genius-level baseball IQ and a level of professional dependability that allowed him to do things that the shortstops around him didn’t do — never even thought of doing, in fact.

Feel free to disagree. It’s cool. But my definition of a Hall of Fame shortstop is allowed to differ from yours. And it’s extra cool if it does in this case — the unique case of Omar Vizquel.
 

Stark

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I know this is schtick, but where do people think Jeter actually ranks all-time among position players? Top 50, top 100?
Not sure about across all positions, that's a bit too much work for me to look at right now, but among shortstops, I've got the following guys ahead of him:

Honus Wagner - no brainer, the best shortstop ever. Had five seasons of 9+ bWAR (topping out at 11.5 in 1908). Jeter's best season was 8.0 bWAR.
Ozzie Smith - probably the best defensive shortstop ever. Had ten seasons of 5+ bWAR. Jeter had 6. Great longevity, amazing defender, and had a few pretty solid offensive seasons at his peak.
Cal Ripken Jr. - another no brainer. Obviously has his insane consecutive games played streak, 2x MVP, two seasons of 10+ bWAR, eight seasons of 5+ bWAR. 3100+ hits, 430+ HR. Career dWAR of 35.7 (Jeter's is -8.3).
Barry Larkin - better defender, more seasons of dominance (eight seasons of 5+ bWAR), MVP, nine silver sluggers. This is closer, but Larkin was better.
Robin Yount - again, this one is a bit closer, but Yount still was a better defender, had more seasons of dominance (seven seasons of 5+ bWAR), and was better in his best seasons versus Jeter's best. Two MVPs as well.
Arky Vaughan - not as recognizable of a name, but he had more career WAR in six less seasons, was a better defender, tied Jeter in seasons of dominance, with two of his seasons being better than Jeter's best.
Luke Appling - better fielder, more seasons of dominance (nine seasons of 5+ bWAR), was a good player up through age 42, again, this is close, but I'd give the nod to Appling.

I've definitely got guys like Ernie Banks and Alex Rodriguez ahead of him as well, but these guys spent a fair time away from shortstop in their career.

Guys like Luis Aparicio, Omar Vizquel, Alan Trammell, Lou Boudreau, Pee Wee Reese, Joe Cronin, George Davis, and Nomar Garciaparra could all have cases made for them as well, but I've got Jeter ahead of these guys right now. Trammell is the closest to passing him.

So yeah, I'd have Jeter anywhere from 8th to 10th on the all-time shortstop list depending on who is considered in the debate. Depending on my mood, I could definitely slide Alan Trammell ahead of him as well.

Again, if Jeter would have been a Tampa Bay Ray or Colorado Rockie his entire career, he wouldn't be anywhere near the GOAT shortstop debate.
 

PIP

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So we pretty much all agree; The Greatest ?

Well there you have it...
 

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