Early 22 GM Thread! (Trade Ideas here)

[CDAV45]

We lack lefties as an organization so him and Hentges could easily end up in the pen if they have solid springs. He just has to show growth from 21...

Hentges is in the BP and the only way he isn't in the BP is if he pitches his way out of it. Same goes for Gose. These 2 are not possibilities, they are 2 of our LHRP to start the 22 season and I'm actually excited about that.

 

[MadThinker88]

Pretty much why I stated that Allen is the long man out of the BP and Morgan starts the year in Columbus. lol

Hentges and Gose are RP from the get go and I like it that way. Power armed LHRP are not a dime a dozen.

Edited to say that what you say about Morgan could also apply to Stephans.

I'm doubt Stephens is in the mix to start again...
The additions of Myers/ Pilkington/ Battenfield (beings added to Morgan & Cody Morris/ Logan S Allen) really fills up the AAA rotation & frees up a permanent move to the bullpen for Stephens.
For him to be starting means someone that should be in the rotation at AAA is stuck in AA & that sets off a chain of setback all the way thru the full season minor league teams.

Im not suggesting Trevor Stephens is the primary 7th/8th inning guy out of the bullpen, but I would prefer him to the dice roll of Hentges/ Gose...

 

[CDAV45]

I'm doubt Stephens is in the mix to start again...
The additions of Myers/ Pilkington/ Battenfield (beings added to Morgan & Cody Morris/ Logan S Allen) really fills up the AAA rotation & frees up a permanent move to the bullpen for Stephens.
For him to be starting means someone that should be in the rotation at AAA is stuck in AA & that sets off a chain of setback all the way thru the full season minor league teams.

Im not suggesting Trevor Stephens is the primary 7th/8th inning guy out of the bullpen, but I would prefer him to the dice roll of Hentges/ Gose...

Yeah, with the SP depth in Akron and Columbus, Stephans is BP bound. Hell, it could get crowded in the Columbus rotation real quick too. Good problem to have!

 

[sportscoach]

I'm doubt Stephens is in the mix to start again...
The additions of Myers/ Pilkington/ Battenfield (beings added to Morgan & Cody Morris/ Logan S Allen) really fills up the AAA rotation & frees up a permanent move to the bullpen for Stephens.
For him to be starting means someone that should be in the rotation at AAA is stuck in AA & that sets off a chain of setback all the way thru the full season minor league teams.

Im not suggesting Trevor Stephens is the primary 7th/8th inning guy out of the bullpen, but I would prefer him to the dice roll of Hentges/ Gose...

I actually have a hunch they want him to start at least early in 22 and see how he progresses. I mean @BimboColesHair would be the best one to ask about where they have Stephan, but I think he's a starter baring injuries...

 

[Gson]

I actually have a hunch they want him to start at least early in 22 and see how he progresses. I mean @BimboColesHair would be the best one to ask about where they have Stephan, but I think he's a starter baring injuries...

disagree with this.. Stephan made great stride coming out of the pen in 2021.. more of that same is desired and expected.. all his stuff plays up in smaller samples...

 

[sportscoach]

disagree with this.. Stephan made great stride coming out of the pen in 2021.. more of that same is desired and expected.. all his stuff plays up in smaller samples...

He's always been a starter until last season and it felt like they wanted him to be a starter long term....now it could have changed after last season and they are limited with the pitchers on the 40 man and they have a lot of starting pitchers, but if he's not in Cleveland, he is likely going to start.

Now it's possible they have him as a swingman in a sense as he goes between starting and long relief like Plutko did but with way more talent...

We will know once spring comes and how they build him up during spring

 

[CATS44]

Stephen was already told to prepare this winter as a reliever. We simply have too many SPs to move him back to the rotation.

**********

The pooh poohing of Civale and Plesac is breathtaking...lol.

In another thread there is a discussion of the relative merits of Mark Buehrle as a HOF candidate. Lets compare Civale, Plesac, and Buehrle.

ERA+

Civale..... 119
Buehrle ...117
Plesac.....115

(All well above average.)

ERA

Civale.....376
Buehrle...381
Plesac....393

FIP

Buehrle...411
Civale......428
Plesac....467

WHIP

Plesac....1.138
Civale ....1.160
Buehrle...1.281

K/BB

Civale....3.40
Plesac...3.16
Buehrle..2.55

This is not to say that Civale and Plesac will end up having Buehrles career. Neither are gonna throw 200+ IP for fifteen years.

But so far they have been just about as effective.

But this crowd seems eager to replace them with untested rookies in the middle of contention.

The only way a kid in Columbus or Akron replaces them is if they get hurt or traded....and if they get traded, it will be for a bonanza, not for what most on here have proposed.

 

[FFRva]

Stephen was already told to prepare this winter as a reliever. We simply have too many SPs to move him back to the rotation.

**********

The pooh poohing of Civale and Plesac is breathtaking...lol.

In another thread there is a discussion of the relative merits of Mark Buehrle as a HOF candidate. Lets compare Civale, Plesac, and Buehrle.

ERA+

Civale..... 119
Buehrle ...117
Plesac.....115

(All well above average.)

ERA

Civale.....376
Buehrle...381
Plesac....393

FIP

Buehrle...411
Civale......428
Plesac....467

WHIP

Plesac....1.138
Civale ....1.160
Buehrle...1.281

K/BB

Civale....3.40
Plesac...3.16
Buehrle..2.55

This is not to say that Civale and Plesac will end up having Buehrles career. Neither are gonna throw 200+ IP for fifteen years.

But so far they have been just about as effective.

But this crowd seems eager to replace them with untested rookies in the middle of contention.

The only way a kid in Columbus or Akron replaces them is if they get hurt or traded....and if they get traded, it will be for a bonanza, not for what most on here have proposed.

Not that I disagree it’s crazy to dog those two and I know pitchers are apples to apples but hasn’t the league changed to an extent where it’s almost apples to oranges? When you compare when buerhle played most his career to the state of the game now just seems different to me. Not diving deep or trying to argue back and forth just seems like different eras in a way, if not an era a different ebb and flow.

Edit - Buerhle in his prime would be head and shoulders above those two, just imo

 

[CDAV45]

Not that I disagree it’s crazy to dog those two and I know pitchers are apples to apples but hasn’t the league changed to an extent where it’s almost apples to oranges? When you compare when buerhle played most his career to the state of the game now just seems different to me. Not diving deep or trying to argue back and forth just seems like different eras in a way, if not an era a different ebb and flow.

Edit - Buerhle in his prime would be head and shoulders above those two, just imo

Don't worry, nobody is dogging Plesac or Civale. You'll find that CATS over exaggerates and moves goal posts in an attempt make his arguments legit.

I won't speak for anyone else, but I view Civale and Plesac as SP with very good value. They are not HOF caliber SP, but they are pretty damn good MOR to BOR guys. It really isn't about Plesac or Civale honestly. It's about the fact that this team will not win with the currently constructed lineup and trading one of Plesac or Civale could really help rectify that issue. Many teams, including ones intending to compete, have rookie SP in the back of their rotations. Hell, we intended to compete last season and we had McKenzie in our rotation. I'd say Ian Anderson pitched pretty well for the WS champs. Fleming didn't pitch to awful bad for the Rays. There's more, but I'm not going to waste my time listing them. There are a few questions we need to ask. Is there quality depth to replace a BOR SP? Is there other resources to include with a SP to maximize the return? Does this organization have a history of trading SP for needs? The quick answer to those 3 questions is hell yes.

There are some other questions that can't be answered by us at this time. Is Logan Allen Sr. ready to claim a rotation spot? Is Morgan effective enough? Can either one of those guys piggy back with Morris to keep his IP down. Would the FO be willing to allow any of Pilkington, Battenfield, or Myers to skip AAA and go straight to Cleveland. Pilkington is already on the 40 man so I'd guess he'll be vying for a spot and very well may win the damn thing. Maybe they all start in Columbus, but end up only pitching 26 innings before getting the call just like Plesac. All these kids have some commonalities that predict a good forecast. They don't walk many. They don't allow many hits. They have very good strikeout rates.

If it weren't for his IP limit, Morris would force his way in anyway. If you don't know anything about this kid I suggest you look at his performances and watch some video. This kid is a stud and would make the rotation even better than it is now immediately IMO. One thing I haven't considered until now is that he may have pitched in an offseason league as well.

Edited to express that I still like Garza as well. I think the kid can be a very effective BOR SP. I'll take my lumps for suggesting as much.

 

[CATS44]

Eras are different, but stats like ERA+ measure how individual players produced against the players of their time.

Over his career Buehrle was 17% better than average. As of now, Civale has been 19% better and Plesac 15%.

While some assert that there is no disparagement of Civale and Plesac, notice the continuous claim that an untested rookie...in fact several of them...would instantly and easily replace them. And the claim that the best way to improve this team would be to trade either or both of them.

Notice also the plethora of claims that prospects like Espino, Morris, Battenfield, and Allen, jr are untouchable, but Civale and Plesac should be readily available.

Any outsider who would peruse this thread...and others like it...would quickly see that I am not exaggerating nor moving goalposts. I have been consistent in my views that this team is built around its rotation, closer, and Jose Ramirez...and that trading away one of our established SPs would not make this team better. At best, trading a SP for a bat is merely robbing Peter to pay Paul...a trade merely for the sake of making a trade.

I have also been consistent in my views on the value of prospects vs the value of established young MLB vets. The failure rate of prospects is astronomical and the trade value of prospects is a market inefficiency that should be exploited.

But like the addicted gambler, the lover of prospects always thinks that his fav prospect will beat the long odds against him and immediately provide significant production at the MLB level.

Maybe one in three will. Maybe.

I have been consistent in my disdain for toolsy prospects with power that can't hit a baseball...and players/prospects that can't stay healthy...and have taken the same amount of criticism from many of the same people, when I strongly suggested that youngsters like Zimmer, Frazier, Bradley, Chang, and Naquin were more valuable in trade than on the field...and that Johnson and Harold weren't enough to waste a roster spot.

I have been consistent in valuing players who can produce 2.5 WAR a season. I wish we had eight of them to go with Jose, and I have no desire to trade, or screw around with, the ones we have that can. Above average is pretty darned good, and Im not interested in trading average/above average production for more hot shot prospects.

I've been consistent in insisting that the division is within reach with two OF upgrades, one of which is major....and that my lineup is pretty well set beyond that. I've been consistent in my wish for a RH OF/1B to provide a backup for Bradley.

Every target I've suggested has fit within those parameters, excepting for Tommy Edman and a few catchers.

 

[petes999]

I actually have a hunch they want him to start at least early in 22 and see how he progresses. I mean @BimboColesHair would be the best one to ask about where they have Stephan, but I think he's a starter baring injuries...

Instead of looking it as depth of starters, we really have a need for relievers. Even with Clase, healthy Kar (if he regains his form that bimbo blamed on injury), sandlin, Gose, Hentges, Allen (out of options) ...., you need Stephan as 7th reliever. Heck RR has Morgan as 8th guy for 13th pitcher. They will bring in more NRI along w Santos for 8th spot, maybe even Shaw, but to fill 2 spots on 40 man (as 7th/8th reliever) for Stephan to start in AAA means more 40 man cuts (baring trade). Guardians need to add Catcher, 8th reliever and possibly OF to 40 man with Naylor/ Vargas on 60 DL as first 2 freed up spots. No way do they give a 2nd 40 man roster spot to any off-the-street NRI reliever.

Do they cut Moss (as "their" plan) to add reliever for Stephan to be AAA starter? They are risking Cantillo for Moss, why cut him days after the Rule 5? They lost Mejia and risked Garza to keep Moss. No way do they do that, especially if, they had already seen a need for 2 relievers if Stephan is in AAA, when Mejia could have been 7th guy

Who else would you cut? Maybe Mercado ... Okay, but again, they need to add an OF NRI/FA in his spot instead (not a 2nd reliever) as its doubtful Kwan and Palacios are both added to Straw, Zimmer as our 3rd and 4th OF at the start of season. With Naylor on DL, Reyes as DH (spot OF maybe), they already will need a Clement, Jones or Rosario to take/fight for that 5th OF/utility mix (to go along with Straw, Zimmer, Mercado and one of Kwan/Palacios). Heck Mercado/Clement will probably be cut anyway for a FA OF (just keeping them as a placeholder/back up plan for now).

There is just no 40 man room for Stephan to be anything but a 7th reliever, baring a major trade which is less likely in a 3-4 week shortened ST to make plans accordingly. Sure, it can happen few days/week before season starts. But, do you prepare for a season, anticipating a possibility? No... Stephan will prep as a reliever.

 

[CDAV45]

Not only is this team built around its rotation, it's been built around the depth of the rotation which has allowed them to trade a SP here and there(Kluber, Bauer, Clevinger, Carrasco to name the most recent). To sit here and suggest they can't survive by trading a SP is contradictory to reality. Especially when the idea is to improve the lineup and not just target prospects. Good grief!

Edited to ask if trading any of those SP removed this team from contention?

 

[Gson]

Instead of looking it as depth of starters, we really have a need for relievers. Even with Clase, healthy Kar (if he regains his form that bimbo blamed on injury), sandlin, Gose, Hentges, Allen (out of options) ...., you need Stephan as 7th reliever. Heck RR has Morgan as 8th guy for 13th pitcher. They will bring in more NRI along w Santos for 8th spot, maybe even Shaw, but to fill 2 spots on 40 man (as 7th/8th reliever) for Stephan to start in AAA means more 40 man cuts (baring trade). Guardians need to add Catcher, 8th reliever and possibly OF to 40 man with Naylor/ Vargas on 60 DL as first 2 freed up spots. No way do they give a 2nd 40 man roster spot to any off-the-street NRI reliever.

Do they cut Moss (as "their" plan) to add reliever for Stephan to be AAA starter? They are risking Cantillo for Moss, why cut him days after the Rule 5? They lost Mejia and risked Garza to keep Moss. No way do they do that, especially if, they had already seen a need for 2 relievers if Stephan is in AAA, when Mejia could have been 7th guy

Who else would you cut? Maybe Mercado ... Okay, but again, they need to add an OF NRI/FA in his spot instead (not a 2nd reliever) as its doubtful Kwan and Palacios are both added to Straw, Zimmer as our 3rd and 4th OF at the start of season. With Naylor on DL, Reyes as DH (spot OF maybe), they already will need a Clement, Jones or Rosario to take/fight for that 5th OF/utility mix (to go along with Straw, Zimmer, Mercado and one of Kwan/Palacios). Heck Mercado/Clement will probably be cut anyway for a FA OF (just keeping them as a placeholder/back up plan for now).

There is just no 40 man room for Stephan to be anything but a 7th reliever, baring a major trade which is less likely in a 3-4 week shortened ST to make plans accordingly. Sure, it can happen few days/week before season starts. But, do you prepare for a season, anticipating a possibility? No... Stephan will prep as a reliever.

interesting posting.. a quick unpack..

1. Stephan's Role: RP.. the end.. as you've stated.. and it's a good role for him, tbh
2. Roster Construction: Three spots needed.. Two spots will be created from 60 day IL additions. So, the Guards need to clear one spot.. Logan S Allen / Oscar Mercado.. There could be two or three others.. This assumes no trades..
3. Catcher & corner OF'er remain as unanswered questions..

thoughts?

 

[CDAV45]

interesting posting.. a quick unpack..

1. Stephan's Role: RP.. the end.. as you've stated.. and it's a good role for him, tbh
2. Roster Construction: Three spots needed.. Two spots will be created from 60 day IL additions. So, the Guards need to clear one spot.. Logan S Allen / Oscar Mercado.. There could be two or three others.. This assumes no trades..
3. Catcher & corner OF'er remain as unanswered questions..

thoughts?

.......and maybe 1B.

 

[CDAV45]

@BimboColesHair how many inning can we realistically expect from Morris in 22?