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Early 22 GM Thread! (Trade Ideas here)

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Not enough, but if we could save Rocchio by including both Freeman and N. Jones, I'd consider it, but we wouldn't get any lotto ticket back.

Espino, Freeman, N. Jones, Burns, C. Tucker for Reynolds alone, add Lavastida, Curry, one of Frias/Durango/Tolentino for Stallings

And they'd probably still turn it down....

My "and others" would definitely be noteworthy prospects as well. I think if we can keep Espino in a Reynolds trade, its a no-brainer for me. But if we trade Espino for upgrades, we should pretty much go all in at that point IMO. As long as we are able to keep Freeman or Rocchio, Morris or Espino, etc.

One more note regarding Espino's current trade value. IMO he is our #1 prospect but unlike many of our other top prospects he doesn't need a 40 man spot... How much that improves his overall value IDK, but it has to add some.
 
Espino is an elite SP prospect, and can be ranked no1, no doubt on both. I prefer Rocchio simply because he's a position player which comes with less injury risk.

That said, I'd absolutely trade Espino before Rocchio (and maybe even Valera), because we need bats more than pitchers. I trust this org to draft and develop arms, not so much bats. So when we have a bunch of good one's, those I keep.

Side note on that take, I believe we absolutely nailed the 2021 Draft. A whole bunch of the college pitchers will be in a Guardians Uni in 2024+
 
Espino is an elite SP prospect, and can be ranked no1, no doubt on both. I prefer Rocchio simply because he's a position player which comes with less injury risk.

That said, I'd absolutely trade Espino before Rocchio (and maybe even Valera), because we need bats more than pitchers. I trust this org to draft and develop arms, not so much bats. So when we have a bunch of good one's, those I keep.

Side note on that take, I believe we absolutely nailed the 2021 Draft. A whole bunch of the college pitchers will be in a Guardians Uni in 2024+

I get Rocchio but Valera is a stretch for me, especially in a trade for an outfielder. A MLB OF of Straw, Reynolds and ??? (Palacios, Reyes, FA) probably makes Valera fairly expendable.
 
I want to see this team improve and compete, but I don't want to give up the largest portion of our best prospects. Not even for Reynolds. I wouldn't have a problem dealing guys like Jones, Hankins, Valera, and even Freeman in the right deal, but I'm not a fan of giving what Pittsburgh wants for Reynolds. I'd much prefer they add to the team the way they have the last couple of years, and that is to deal a SP. Plesac being who's the most available, but if an offer for McKenzie was too good to turn down then I'd consider it.

Maybe we're looking to solve the corner OF situation in the wrong areas. Maybe the target(s) hasn't been called up yet. For example, could the Mets' Vientos be a good target? He can play all of 3B, 1B, and LF. At this point I'd rather risk it with guys like Jones and Vientos over the high cost of the aforementioned. Pick up what looks like a decent OFer in the R5 to go along with them and shit can all of Mercado, Zimmer, HRam, and maybe even Johnson.
 
Depending on the others, I'd trade Espino and Valera for Reynolds without blinking.

With Reynolds...and expecting Jose being here beyond 2023...our offense rivals anybody in the division for four years. We would have the two best players in the division.

If I could get Reynolds without losing Rocchio or Freeman...that would be almost a best case scenario....because I value them more than any of our other prospects.

Fans say they want an elite offense, but not when they get to the details. They prefer elite farm systems, I guess.

If we add Reynolds....

We have a very good to elite rotation for at least four years to come, with good SP prospects backed up to rookie ball.

We have an elite closer for at least four years.

We are set at 3B, CF, LF, and DH for four years with above average to elite production at all four positions...and excellent defense at the three glove positions.

We have the makings of an excellent keystone combo for the next half decade, no matter what the names are.

The other three positions are readily fillable with short term, affordable pieces.. if prospects like Jones, Bo Naylor, Lavastida, Noel, Palacios, and younger players like Bradley and Josh Naylor don't work out.

All within an affordable budget....and we would still have more prospect capital for trades.

Why don't Cleveland fans want to win?

Wanting to win means doing the things necessary to win....and fans don't want to do those necessary things.

All these prospects...Espino, Valera, Jones, down to the lowest on the rung...have been worth exactly zero wins for us. The vast majority of them will never be worth more to us, unless we trade them while they have value.

We have a stage that is set for big moves. Its time to make those moves.
 
Depending on the others, I'd trade Espino and Valera for Reynolds without blinking.

With Reynolds...and expecting Jose being here beyond 2023...our offense rivals anybody in the division for four years. We would have the two best players in the division.

If I could get Reynolds without losing Rocchio or Freeman...that would be almost a best case scenario....because I value them more than any of our other prospects.

Fans say they want an elite offense, but not when they get to the details. They prefer elite farm systems, I guess.

If we add Reynolds....

We have a very good to elite rotation for at least four years to come, with good SP prospects backed up to rookie ball.

We have an elite closer for at least four years.

We are set at 3B, CF, LF, and DH for four years with above average to elite production at all four positions...and excellent defense at the three glove positions.

We have the makings of an excellent keystone combo for the next half decade, no matter what the names are.

The other three positions are readily fillable with short term, affordable pieces.. if prospects like Jones, Bo Naylor, Lavastida, Noel, Palacios, and younger players like Bradley and Josh Naylor don't work out.

All within an affordable budget....and we would still have more prospect capital for trades.

Why don't Cleveland fans want to win?

Wanting to win means doing the things necessary to win....and fans don't want to do those necessary things.

All these prospects...Espino, Valera, Jones, down to the lowest on the rung...have been worth exactly zero wins for us. The vast majority of them will never be worth more to us, unless we trade them while they have value.

We have a stage that is set for big moves. Its time to make those moves.
What's wrong with continuing to add the way they've been doing the last couple of years and making a few select prospects available without it being any of Espino, Arias, Rocchio, or Valera? I'd see if there's any interest in Jones, Freeman, Hankins, Burns, both Naylors, and a few others. If Pittsburgh demands Espino then I'd pass too and call Arizona and Baltimore. I'd let them know that Freeman, Jones, Valera, Hankins, Burns, and the Naylors are all available in the right deal.

Either way, I'd look to move Plesac or McKenzie(preferably Plesac) for a longterm corner OF bat as well. If Lewis is healthy then you might be able to pry him and Hancock from the Mariners who are in search of a couple of SP. Maybe they'd prefer to send Haniger and Hancock. Either way, Haniger or a healthy Lewis solve one of our corner OF dilemmas. The problem with Haniger is the lack of control, but maybe an extension could be worked out. After all, there is some financial wiggle room.

I think there is enough quality SP depth to allow Plesac to be traded. I just don't think we'll lose our top 3 SP simultaneously like we did last season. I also believe that Morris is ready and can/will pitch as well as Plesac or McKenzie. Battenfield and Pilkington should be able to help next season as well. I have confidence in those 3 SP prospects because they are much more than just throwers. They control their pitches well and have good stuff. Very atypical of a Cleveland pitcher brought up through the system or targeted.
 
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Even with decent health we will need eight SPs next year to navigate 162 games. As GM, I'm not trading Plesac, unless I get a MLB ready SP in return.

**************

If Espino is as highly valued by other teams as some fans think, I have no problem with him being the centerpiece for a long term bat. Of our top five prospects, he is most likely to not meet expectations...and in any case (outside of disaster), he isn't gonna help us for at least two years...unless you don't believe what you are saying about all the SP prospects above him.

As I've said multiple times in this thread, as GM I'm tired of always talking about three years from now. If I can put a team on the field for the next three/four years that can go toe to toe with everybody in the division, I'm gonna do it....all the talk about how good our prospects are be damned. Prospects and potential have never won a MLB ball game. Production wins ball games. I will gladly pay potential for young, under control production.

We could trade five prospects today, and still have more than we can ever use.

Exactly why do we want to hold onto ten pitching prospects when we already have a very good rotation in place for the foreseeable future? Why do we want to hold onto SIXTEEN (Go ahead, count them) combined 40 FV or higher MIF prospects, including the ones already in Cleveland?

Its insanity not to use excess assets to make this team significantly better. Its the same as if Dolan came out tomorrow and said the bookkeeper just discovered that we have an extra $200 mil, but I'm not gonna spend it on the team.

Ask yourself these questions...

Do we NEED a significant young, controllable corner OF in order to hang with Chicago?

If we had one, do we NEED Lavera, or is he a luxury?

With our present rotation down thru Akron, do we NEED Espino in the next several years, or is he a luxury?

With four fairly young MIFs already in Cleveland, and three more either in Columbus, or due to be there, do we NEED all 16 MIFs, or is having more than we can use a luxury?

Can the Guardians contend in 2022 if one third of the 40 man consists of prospects who have never played in MLB?...almost one half of the position players?

If we don't trade some of the prospects...and if you protect the kids that have to be kept, along with Vargas, Jones, and Arias, we will only have 27 players with any MLB experience. Plus many of those 27 will only have minimal MLB experience.

Insane is probably not a strong enough word.
 
What's wrong with continuing to add the way they've been doing the last couple of years and making a few select prospects available without it being any of Espino, Arias, Rocchio, or Valera? I'd see if there's any interest in Jones, Freeman, Hankins, Burns, both Naylors, and a few others. If Pittsburgh demands Espino then I'd pass too and call Arizona and Baltimore. I'd let them know that Freeman, Jones, Valera, Hankins, Burns, and the Naylors are all available in the right deal.

Either way, I'd look to move Plesac or McKenzie(preferably Plesac) for a longterm corner OF bat as well. If Lewis is healthy then you might be able to pry him and Hancock from the Mariners who are in search of a couple of SP. Maybe they'd prefer to send Haniger and Hancock. Either way, Haniger or a healthy Lewis solve one of our corner OF dilemmas. The problem with Haniger is the lack of control, but maybe an extension could be worked out. After all, there is some financial wiggle room.

I think there is enough quality SP depth to allow Plesac to be traded. I just don't think we'll lose our top 3 SP simultaneously like we did last season. I also believe that Miller is ready and can/will pitch as well as Plesac or McKenzie. Battenfield and Pilkington should be able to help next season as well. I have confidence in those 3 SP prospects because they are much more than just throwers. They control their pitches well and have good stuff. Very atypical of a Cleveland pitcher brought up through the system or targeted.
Continuing adding is exactly what the CleFO will do.. there is little doubt that is going to be the way this club continues to be relevant and contends..

Your listing of Espino, Arias, Rocchio and/or Valera.. is a damn good list.. These are guys that need to be coddled and protected from any immediate / false urgency w/r to contending. There is "enough prospect capital" to make deals for the highest priority needs (c-OF'ers, C'ing, 1B) of the club by NOT including this quartet..

Seattle appears to be a very good fit w/r to the needs of both clubs.. Harry Ford and Cade Marlowe could both be considered from the M's as high interest prospects.. certainly better than just "add ins"...

Who's Miller? Do you mean Cody Morris? (If it is Morris, then we could see some ML action in 2022.. agree)

It would be highly unlikely that the top three pitchers in our rotation will go down again.. but.. if it can happen once... The interest in Reynolds, imho, is waning rapidly based upon the initial ask.. this isn't a deal..it's an emasculation of the top of the prospect bank.. HARD PASS..

Thoughts?
 
Going out on a limb and say let's just trade for Merrifield and sign Suzuki... Lead off guy and 5/6 hole guy... sign Gomes, get a veteran relief guy. Trade for Bowden of the Rockies... off season done lol
 
Continuing adding is exactly what the CleFO will do.. there is little doubt that is going to be the way this club continues to be relevant and contends..

Your listing of Espino, Arias, Rocchio and/or Valera.. is a damn good list.. These are guys that need to be coddled and protected from any immediate / false urgency w/r to contending. There is "enough prospect capital" to make deals for the highest priority needs (c-OF'ers, C'ing, 1B) of the club by NOT including this quartet..

Seattle appears to be a very good fit w/r to the needs of both clubs.. Harry Ford and Cade Marlowe could both be considered from the M's as high interest prospects.. certainly better than just "add ins"...

Who's Miller? Do you mean Cody Morris? (If it is Morris, then we could see some ML action in 2022.. agree)

It would be highly unlikely that the top three pitchers in our rotation will go down again.. but.. if it can happen once... The interest in Reynolds, imho, is waning rapidly based upon the initial ask.. this isn't a deal..it's an emasculation of the top of the prospect bank.. HARD PASS..

Thoughts?
There is no false urgency...there is immediate need. (If you truly want to contend for a division title. If not, just say so.)

We need two corner OFs...unless you are happy with what you watched this year. Or, unless you think that one of Jones, Palacios, or Ka'ai...er...Steven Kwan will step in and immediately provide 2.5 WAR.

We need a catcher. We only have one MLB right now. Presumably, you'd like something other than a 39 yr old career backup.

We don't have $30-40 mil to sign those three positions, so the only way to acquire three significant upgrades is to trade some of our significant prospects.

So its gonna take some of Espino, Valera, Rocchio, Freeman, Arias, and Jones....or it will mean stripping our rotation.

Thats the cost of contention....like it or not.

Of those six, not one can be reasonably expected to contribute next year....by contributing, I mean provide at least 2 WAR. Without a trade, not one can be reasonably be expected to even open the season in Cleveland.

When you have 14 kids who have at least one valid reason to be added to the 40 man, and probably eight more next year...when you have sixteen MIFs rated as at least 40 FV...when you dont have room to fit all of your SP prospects into a rotation above A ball...it is not emasculating the farm system by trading a bunch of them. It's called pruning.
 
Continuing adding is exactly what the CleFO will do.. there is little doubt that is going to be the way this club continues to be relevant and contends..

Your listing of Espino, Arias, Rocchio and/or Valera.. is a damn good list.. These are guys that need to be coddled and protected from any immediate / false urgency w/r to contending. There is "enough prospect capital" to make deals for the highest priority needs (c-OF'ers, C'ing, 1B) of the club by NOT including this quartet..

Seattle appears to be a very good fit w/r to the needs of both clubs.. Harry Ford and Cade Marlowe could both be considered from the M's as high interest prospects.. certainly better than just "add ins"...

Who's Miller? Do you mean Cody Morris? (If it is Morris, then we could see some ML action in 2022.. agree)

It would be highly unlikely that the top three pitchers in our rotation will go down again.. but.. if it can happen once... The interest in Reynolds, imho, is waning rapidly based upon the initial ask.. this isn't a deal..it's an emasculation of the top of the prospect bank.. HARD PASS..

Thoughts?
Sorry! Yes I meant Morris. I was actually thinking about Miller too wondering what could be expected of him this year. Regarding Miller, he was a damn good hitter and I bet he still is so I wouldn't be surprised to see him take off this season. He's been cast aside due to his poor performance during his initial call up.

With anything we treasure in life, there's a cost that makes it prohibitive. This applies to Reynolds as well.
 
Even with decent health we will need eight SPs next year to navigate 162 games. As GM, I'm not trading Plesac, unless I get a MLB ready SP in return.

**************

If Espino is as highly valued by other teams as some fans think, I have no problem with him being the centerpiece for a long term bat. Of our top five prospects, he is most likely to not meet expectations...and in any case (outside of disaster), he isn't gonna help us for at least two years...unless you don't believe what you are saying about all the SP prospects above him.

As I've said multiple times in this thread, as GM I'm tired of always talking about three years from now. If I can put a team on the field for the next three/four years that can go toe to toe with everybody in the division, I'm gonna do it....all the talk about how good our prospects are be damned. Prospects and potential have never won a MLB ball game. Production wins ball games. I will gladly pay potential for young, under control production.

We could trade five prospects today, and still have more than we can ever use.

Exactly why do we want to hold onto ten pitching prospects when we already have a very good rotation in place for the foreseeable future? Why do we want to hold onto SIXTEEN (Go ahead, count them) combined 40 FV or higher MIF prospects, including the ones already in Cleveland?

Its insanity not to use excess assets to make this team significantly better. Its the same as if Dolan came out tomorrow and said the bookkeeper just discovered that we have an extra $200 mil, but I'm not gonna spend it on the team.

Ask yourself these questions...

Do we NEED a significant young, controllable corner OF in order to hang with Chicago?

If we had one, do we NEED Lavera, or is he a luxury?

With our present rotation down thru Akron, do we NEED Espino in the next several years, or is he a luxury?

With four fairly young MIFs already in Cleveland, and three more either in Columbus, or due to be there, do we NEED all 16 MIFs, or is having more than we can use a luxury?

Can the Guardians contend in 2022 if one third of the 40 man consists of prospects who have never played in MLB?...almost one half of the position players?

If we don't trade some of the prospects...and if you protect the kids that have to be kept, along with Vargas, Jones, and Arias, we will only have 27 players with any MLB experience. Plus many of those 27 will only have minimal MLB experience.

Insane is probably not a strong enough word.
I'm only speaking for myself here CATS, but I believe there are plenty of very good prospects to deal for whatever help is needed. I also feel that Plesac and Rosario are available in the right scenario too. The beauty of them being available is that the conditions for which they could be traded are solely at the discretion of MC and CA. They don't need to move them. They don't have to move them.

I'm not arguing with you because you and I agree about the current OF situation. The minor difference is you're fixated on Reynolds and rightfully so because he's one helluva ball player. I just think we can get drastically better by not dealing the 4 or so that I mentioned. Although I could be convinced to deal Valera for the right player. Reynolds being one, but as Bimbo stated, It starts with Espino and Valera and that's a deal killer for me. If they could accept a package starting with Hankins and Valera then I'd be willing to listen.

My fixation with Espino is that he's a rare bird. 100 mph FB that carries to the late innings with good off speed stuff and control. He's low maintenance with an easy repeatable delivery. So while there are several very good pitching prospects at the upper levels, none of them have Espino's ceiling IMO. Yes, there are several SP prospects above him, but he has the talent to surpass them in the blink of an eye. I don't expect him to pitch in Cleveland in 22, but I think he could perform well right now at the highest level. We have nobody with his stuff on our staff. Just my $.02.

In the end, I don't know if there are any right or wrong answers TBH.
 
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Sorry! Yes I meant Morris. I was actually thinking about Miller too wondering what could be expected of him this year. Regarding Miller, he was a damn good hitter and I bet he still is so I wouldn't be surprised to see him take off this season. He's been cast aside due to his poor performance during his initial call up.

With anything we treasure in life, there's a cost that makes it prohibitive. This applies to Reynolds as well.

Think of how many people out there who want a Harley Davidson more than anything and end up with a Kawasaki.. That kind of sounds like the Guardians..
 

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