Early 22 GM Thread! (Trade Ideas here)

[Gson]

We went from Cy Young contender to unproven MLB arm... Guirrel is the only proven player back and WAR wise will fill in one hole but we created another. Odds say we get worse in 22 trading Bieber and the division itself will be stronger in 22 as well overall so getting weaker on paper when the teams around us likely are stronger, hard to merit being a contender without Bieber in a sense.

Now if we could make a swap for like Marquez and keep Guirrel, Pearson and Moreno, then it's possible to stay contenders since we just really improved the team in a way.

It would have to be Bieber for those 5, then using pieces to get a different solid TOR/MOR then adding a OF bat in free agency... that could possibly be scary to face if done correctly, but just that one move alone will make us go backwards on paper in 22...

We went from injury recovering former cy young winner to a young/upstart stud who shows some tremendous upside in the minors as well as some experience in the ML's against a division that is arguably as strong as any in all of baseball.... Having a fully ready and somewhat exerperienced ML starting pitching staff of Quantrill/McKenzie/Civale/Plesac/Morgan and Morris / Pilkington / Battenfield and others make them ready to compete, at least on paper..

Agree.. the division will be stronger.. so standing pat on a team that finished 13 games back while relying on injury recovery and added experience / knowledge doesn't thrill me.. and it shouldn't.. There is not a void left IF Bieber is dealt.. That argument is nothing more than a self serving indulgence of ego... Every player can be replaced.. some just cost more or hurt more...

 

[CDAV45]

I'm at the point where the uncertainty and cost of the OFers mentioned by us posters is no less risky than trying to acquire someone like Vientos from the Mets. Looking at the data, I think he should be a prioritized target because he checks all the boxes. Hits for average, good OBP, good power, and has some versatility(LF/3B/1B). If Jones could get his shit together then they could constitute an excellent corner OF combo with Valera coming in the near future.

Clearly there's no room for Vientos in the Mets' OF and they have Davis to play 3B/LF until their preferred prospect(Baty) is ready.

He is on the Mets' 40 man and I find it hard to believe they would try to pass him through, but stranger things have happened so I'd keep my eye on him. He'd never make it to us anyway so might as well try to make a deal before Dec 1 IMO. As Gson would say.......thoughts?

 

[sportscoach]

I'm at the point where the uncertainty and cost of the OFers mentioned by us posters is no less risky than trying to acquire someone like Vientos from the Mets. Looking at the data, I think he should be a prioritized target because he checks all the boxes. Hits for average, good OBP, good power, and has some versatility(LF/3B/1B). If Jones could get his shit together then they could constitute an excellent corner OF combo with Valera coming in the near future.

Clearly there's no room for Vientos in the Mets' OF and they have Davis to play 3B/LF until their preferred prospect(Baty) is ready.

He is on the Mets' 40 man and I find it hard to believe they would try to pass him through, but stranger things have happened so I'd keep my eye on him. He'd never make it to us anyway so might as well try to make a deal before Dec 1 IMO. As Gson would say.......thoughts?

Vientos hasn't even played in the pros and has had less than 100 games between AA/AAA... I am not against getting a guy like this, but we still need MLB proven bats... you were 100% against a Frazier, who is a career .281/.344/.412 to play LF, but we can go for a guy who hasn't played 100 games above A ball?

If we were looking at this, why not a Kevin Smith from the Jays? He will be cheaper to acquire, since he is an older prospect, and he is blocked cause of who is on the Jays roster above him... He had a solid 21 overall and he was a top 100 prospect a few years ago. He is a breakout candidate in my mind plus he has decent power and more speed than they give him credit for (15-20 SBs). Plus the two organization know each other well so its not a trade that would be too hard to pull off.

 

[CDAV45]

Vientos hasn't even played in the pros and has had less than 100 games between AA/AAA... I am not against getting a guy like this, but we still need MLB proven bats... you were 100% against a Frazier, who is a career .281/.344/.412 to play LF, but we can go for a guy who hasn't played 100 games above A ball?

If we were looking at this, why not a Kevin Smith from the Jays? He will be cheaper to acquire, since he is an older prospect, and he is blocked cause of who is on the Jays roster above him... He had a solid 21 overall and he was a top 100 prospect a few years ago. He is a breakout candidate in my mind plus he has decent power and more speed than they give him credit for (15-20 SBs). Plus the two organization know each other well so its not a trade that would be too hard to pull off.

I'm against Frazier because he cannot impact a baseball coach. You don't mind that, but I do. Moving on......

I'm not against getting Kevin Smith at all. Actually a good idea, but don't pretend he's on Vientos' level. Speaking of the Blue Jays, I actually like Espinal as well and I suspect you do/would too. Maybe we could do a deal that sent Amed to Toronto for Espinal and Smith. Espinal takes over 2B duties and Gimenez slides over to SS where he belongs until one of the other kids run him off. Smith goes to LF and Vientos goes to RF. All we'd need is a C unless Lavastida comes out of the gate hitting then we don't need a damn thing. I'd take responsibility for those moves and wear that shit like I owned it regardless of the outcome.

K. Smith at 21 yrs of age got most of his playing time in A+ after being promoted. He slashed 274/332/468/799 with 18 HR in 340 AB.
M. Vientos at 21 yrs of age got most of his playing time in AA(skipped A+) before being promoted to AAA. He slashed 281/346/580/927 with 22 HR in 274 AB. They are not the same coach, but I might prefer to have both of them instead of the risk with a guy like Happ or Garcia, and certainly over a non-factor bat like Frazier. Please don't misunderstand me. There is risk with what I'd like to do here, but I'd rather put that risk into guys like Vientos, Espinal, and Smith than expensive veterans with up and down careers and whose peaks aren't that impressive.

 

[Tondo]

Please stop the Vientos talk. We already have a Vientos in our system (high BB and K%, mighty power). His name is Nolan Jones and most are skeptical he'll hit enough at the ML level.

We won't add to our upper minors hitting glut, we're looking to dissolve that for a veteran bat. Waste your breaths on how to accomplish that...

 

[Gson]

Hmm... Espinal..

Not a 3B by trade.. moved there to accomodate Bichette at SS, his best spot on the diamond... his next best spot is 2B.. & he could not supplant the incumbent there.. leaving 3B as his spot.. He has a handful of starts/innings in the OF.. Has had his best years when he plays more.. & doesn't matter where.. OBP is his calling card.. He walks some..but could walk more.. he strikes out some.. but not a lot by today's standard.. He's a good, not great, overall player.. If he could be acquired for "most" on the prospect list below 15 per MLB.com a deal should be made.. If the Jays are truly interested in dealing with the Guardians for players that MAKE SENSE both ways, there is more than one choice to consider..

Starting with any and all catching not named Kirk...

 

[CDAV45]

Please stop the Vientos talk. We already have a Vientos in our system (high BB and K%, mighty power). His name is Nolan Jones and most are skeptical he'll hit enough at the ML level.

We won't add to our upper minors hitting glut, we're looking to dissolve that for a veteran bat. Waste your breaths on how to accomplish that...

I think I'll just keep on talking about him thank you anyway as he's performed better than Jones with relation to age and level. If you want to "dissolve" any prospect capital into a veteran bat, then start with Jones if you need to. Personally I'd like to see him rebound this year and find his way to Progressive Field. He's potentially the type of bat that we cannot afford at this or any other time.

I said nothing of "adding to the upper minors". I did mention bringing Vientos aboard and putting him in a corner OF.

Any "veteran bat" they get will come with their own flaws. Like I said, it comes down to what particular risk you prefer. I prefer that they don't severely degrade the upper level minor league depth and quality by trading a large chunk of it for 1 player.

They had a plan and that plan appears to be on the verge of making us a serious contender. I'd hate to see them abandon it because they got impatient just before the fruit ripened. I bought into the strategy and if I had any say then I would tell them to see it through and strengthen it if possible. I think obtaining a young player like Vientos, Smith, and/or Espinal would do that. Much in the same way adding Battenfield and Pilkington did, just on the positional side. Keep that money and give a chunk of it to JRam and any other player willing to sign a fair extension who is worth keeping around(Bieber).

 

[sportscoach]

I'm against Frazier because he cannot impact a baseball coach. You don't mind that, but I do. Moving on......

I'm not against getting Kevin Smith at all. Actually a good idea, but don't pretend he's on Vientos' level. Speaking of the Blue Jays, I actually like Espinal as well and I suspect you do/would too. Maybe we could do a deal that sent Amed to Toronto for Espinal and Smith. Espinal takes over 2B duties and Gimenez slides over to SS where he belongs until one of the other kids run him off. Smith goes to LF and Vientos goes to RF. All we'd need is a C unless Lavastida comes out of the gate hitting then we don't need a damn thing. I'd take responsibility for those moves and wear that shit like I owned it regardless of the outcome.

K. Smith at 21 yrs of age got most of his playing time in A+ after being promoted. He slashed 274/332/468/799 with 18 HR in 340 AB.
M. Vientos at 21 yrs of age got most of his playing time in AA(skipped A+) before being promoted to AAA. He slashed 281/346/580/927 with 22 HR in 274 AB. They are not the same coach, but I might prefer to have both of them instead of the risk with a guy like Happ or Garcia, and certainly over a non-factor bat like Frazier. Please don't misunderstand me. There is risk with what I'd like to do here, but I'd rather put that risk into guys like Vientos, Espinal, and Smith than expensive veterans with up and down careers and whose peaks aren't that impressive.

I think I'll just keep on talking about him thank you anyway as he's performed better than Jones with relation to age and level. If you want to "dissolve" any prospect capital into a veteran bat, then start with Jones if you need to. Personally I'd like to see him rebound this year and find his way to Progressive Field. He's potentially the type of bat that we cannot afford at this or any other time.

I said nothing of "adding to the upper minors". I did mention bringing Vientos aboard and putting him in a corner OF.

Any "veteran bat" they get will come with their own flaws. Like I said, it comes down to what particular risk you prefer. I prefer that they don't severely degrade the upper level minor league depth and quality by trading a large chunk of it for 1 player.

They had a plan and that plan appears to be on the verge of making us a serious contender. I'd hate to see them abandon it because they got impatient just before the fruit ripened. I bought into the strategy and if I had any say then I would tell them to see it through and strengthen it if possible. I think obtaining a young player like Vientos, Smith, and/or Espino would do that. Much in the same way adding Battenfield and Pilkington did, just on the positional side. Keep that money and give a chunk of it to JRam and any other player willing to sign a fair extension who is worth keeping around(Bieber).

Honestly how can you say a guy who had a 4 WAR season cannot impact the ball? Frazier's only issue is he doesn't have a ton of power... He is just as good of hitter as Amed if not better, so I guess Amed cannot impact the ball either...

Also Vientos has had one good MiLB season... otherwise Jones has the better numbers overall. If I went by potential yeah Vientos may be higher but he won't be making his MLB debut in 22 while Jones likely will. Not sure how you believe Vientos will play in the corner OF in 22 for a big league club, btw. Jones after a bad start, went back to being himself. Honestly Vientos had a good 21, but his numbers were inflated from his previous seasons, so is he a one season wonder or is it the actual deal?

I'd like Smith, but he isn't a proven MLB guy, which is what we need... Espinal on the other hand, isn't any better of an overall hitter than Frazier or Amed, since Frazier cannot impact the ball neither can Espinal by your logic... Also via your logic as well Amed could not net us Espinal and Smith since you said Frazier's bat cannot be an impact so neither can Amed's so we aren't getting a 2 WAR player plus a prospect for a non-impact 2 WAR player...

 

[Gson]

I think I'll just keep on talking about him thank you anyway as he's performed better than Jones with relation to age and level. If you want to "dissolve" any prospect capital into a veteran bat, then start with Jones if you need to. Personally I'd like to see him rebound this year and find his way to Progressive Field. He's potentially the type of bat that we cannot afford at this or any other time.

I said nothing of "adding to the upper minors". I did mention bringing Vientos aboard and putting him in a corner OF.

Any "veteran bat" they get will come with their own flaws. Like I said, it comes down to what particular risk you prefer. I prefer that they don't severely degrade the upper level minor league depth and quality by trading a large chunk of it for 1 player.

They had a plan and that plan appears to be on the verge of making us a serious contender. I'd hate to see them abandon it because they got impatient just before the fruit ripened. I bought into the strategy and if I had any say then I would tell them to see it through and strengthen it if possible. I think obtaining a young player like Vientos, Smith, and/or Espino would do that. Much in the same way adding Battenfield and Pilkington did, just on the positional side. Keep that money and give a chunk of it to JRam and any other player willing to sign a fair extension who is worth keeping around(Bieber).

Agree with this.. especially the part about Nolan Jones... either as prospect capital or rebound..

 

[CDAV45]

Honestly how can you say a guy who had a 4 WAR season cannot impact the ball? Frazier's only issue is he doesn't have a ton of power... He is just as good of hitter as Amed if not better, so I guess Amed cannot impact the ball either...

Also Vientos has had one good MiLB season... otherwise Jones has the better numbers overall. If I went by potential yeah Vientos may be higher but he won't be making his MLB debut in 22 while Jones likely will. Not sure how you believe Vientos will play in the corner OF in 22 for a big league club, btw. Jones after a bad start, went back to being himself. Honestly Vientos had a good 21, but his numbers were inflated from his previous seasons, so is he a one season wonder or is it the actual deal?

I'd like Smith, but he isn't a proven MLB guy, which is what we need... Espinal on the other hand, isn't any better of an overall hitter than Frazier or Amed, since Frazier cannot impact the ball neither can Espinal by your logic... Also via your logic as well Amed could not net us Espinal and Smith since you said Frazier's bat cannot be an impact so neither can Amed's so we aren't getting a 2 WAR player plus a prospect for a non-impact 2 WAR player...

Correct! Which is why I said I don't want to see either of them in LF. Their bats do not profile well there.

He has? Looks like he had a couple of good seasons to me and skipped A+ altogether. Ended up in AAA as a 21 yr old. Sound familiar? Acquiring Vientos has nothing to do with Jones in my mind. We need help in both OF corners and some 1B depth. I stated earlier in the other thread I think that I'd prefer to keep Jones around to see if he rebounds in 22.

Espinal gets to the ball as well as Frazier, is almost 3 yrs younger, has more power, speed, versatility, costs about $7M less per season and won't hit his first year of arbitration until 2024. Frankly, I'd prefer Espinal to Frazier, but we don't actually need him because we don't need a MIFer. I just like him better than Frazier and he might be available. I'd gladly take the sure to be decent return for Rosario and replace him with Espinal. I'd also prefer to use that extra $7M you wanted to spend on Frazier for a good FA C who used to play here.

I like Smith too, but he isn't as good as Vientos. I'd gladly take them both so I don't need to argue one over the other.

 

[CDAV45]

Hmm... Espinal..

Not a 3B by trade.. moved there to accomodate Bichette at SS, his best spot on the diamond... his next best spot is 2B.. & he could not supplant the incumbent there.. leaving 3B as his spot.. He has a handful of starts/innings in the OF.. Has had his best years when he plays more.. & doesn't matter where.. OBP is his calling card.. He walks some..but could walk more.. he strikes out some.. but not a lot by today's standard.. He's a good, not great, overall player.. If he could be acquired for "most" on the prospect list below 15 per MLB.com a deal should be made.. If the Jays are truly interested in dealing with the Guardians for players that MAKE SENSE both ways, there is more than one choice to consider..

Starting with any and all catching not named Kirk...

Would you consider a Smith and Espinal for Karinchak deal?

 

[sportscoach]

Correct! Which is why I said I don't want to see either of them in LF. Their bats do not profile well there.

He has? Looks like he had a couple of good seasons to me and skipped A+ altogether. Ended up in AAA as a 21 yr old. Sound familiar? Acquiring Vientos has nothing to do with Jones in my mind. We need help in both OF corners and some 1B depth. I stated earlier in the other thread I think that I'd prefer to keep Jones around to see if he rebounds in 22.

Espinal gets to the ball as well as Frazier, is almost 3 yrs younger, has more power, speed, versatility, costs about $7M less per season and won't hit his first year of arbitration until 2024. Frankly, I'd prefer Espinal to Frazier, but we don't actually need him because we don't need a MIFer. I just like him better than Frazier and he might be available. I'd gladly take the sure to be decent return for Rosario and replace him with Espinal. I'd also prefer to use that extra $7M you wanted to spend on Frazier for a good FA C who used to play here.

I like Smith too, but he isn't as good as Vientos. I'd gladly take them both so I don't need to argue one over the other.

I can merit the argument of Frazier getting paid more than he is worth in a sense, but neither Frazier nor Espinal fit your definition of LF, but then again neither does Brantley, so I so don't agree with your definition of who plays LF.

When do you think Vientos will play in the bigs? His MiLB career before 21, is like an .750 OPS if that... (Jones has been near .850 btw). He will start at AAA in 22 and I don't think he would start there in the Cleveland organization. I'd actually think he would start at AA in Cleveland.

We don't need a MIF either way, which Smith kind of is, but he has played LF so i would switch him out there. Of all the guys we mentioned, I feel we should get Smith and non-tender Zimmer...

 

[Gson]

Would you consider a Smith and Espinal for Karinchak deal?

No.. the ML roster has to be preserved where depth is limited.. The Guards do not have enough depth in primary set up men.. at least those that have shown an innate ability to close as well.. something that Karinchak may be called upon at times during the coming 2022 season..

 

[PPark]

I think I’m catching on to this game, ‘who can lower their expectations farther?’. I suppose it will make the eventual acquisitions appear far grander. For example, Lane Thomas

 

[CDAV45]

I can merit the argument of Frazier getting paid more than he is worth in a sense, but neither Frazier nor Espinal fit your definition of LF, but then again neither does Brantley, so I so don't agree with your definition of who plays LF.

When do you think Vientos will play in the bigs? His MiLB career before 21, is like an .750 OPS if that... (Jones has been near .850 btw). He will start at AAA in 22 and I don't think he would start there in the Cleveland organization. I'd actually think he would start at AA in Cleveland.

We don't need a MIF either way, which Smith kind of is, but he has played LF so i would switch him out there. Of all the guys we mentioned, I feel we should get Smith and non-tender Zimmer...

No you really can't "merit" Frazier getting paid more than he is worth, and WTF said anything about Espinal playing LF? Neither are Brantley so your comparison is bogus and you're trying to put words in my mouth. To me, both Frazier and Espinal are MIFers, and I clearly stated that we really don't need Espinal. I just like his play and I think he will show some significant power gains if given the opportunity to play full time. He's a very nice, young player and you clearly haven't done your homework on him. I feel like you're just looking to argue because he is the type of player you covet. What catches my eye with him is that he still has upside with his power.

Why would Vientos start in AA for Cleveland? Do you realize that the Mets AA and AAA teams are in the same leagues as Clevelands'? Vientos mashed Eastern League pitching after skipping A+ ball altogether. When promoted to AAA he didn't miss a beat in that sss. I think he's ready and yes there is certainly the possibility that he struggles like Miller did. However, there is also the possibility that he is what we don't have and won't get without taking on a larger salary and trading away some prize prospects in the upper levels. Like I said, it's where you prefer to place the risk. I think from an offensive perspective Vientos is right inline with Arias. I hold both in very high regard and I'm ready to see what they can do. The upside is intriguing to me. Why would you put more weight on what he was as a hitter as a 19 yr old in the lower levels then you do as a 21 yr old in the upper levels. Ever heard of a thing called development?

I would not acquire either Smith or Vientos for anything other than corner OF at this time even though their ability to play other positions is a good thing and could come in handy. Replacing Zimmer and Mercado with Smith and Vientos doesn't seem ridiculous at all to me. Most would probably prefer to trade for a player like Marte and I don't blame them. You're not getting him without giving up Espino and a few other top 10 prospects like Freeman, Jones, or Arias. I don't want to see that happen because they are damn near there. In fact, I want more like them in the areas that are lacking.