Early 22 GM Thread! (Trade Ideas here)

[CDAV45]

No.. the ML roster has to be preserved where depth is limited.. The Guards do not have enough depth in primary set up men.. at least those that have shown an innate ability to close as well.. something that Karinchak may be called upon at times during the coming 2022 season..

Fair point, but I think I have a bit more confidence that Karinchak's production could be replaced. Admittedly that could be expecting a bit much.

 

[CDAV45]

I think I’m catching on to this game, ‘who can lower their expectations farther?’. I suppose it will make the eventual acquisitions appear far grander. For example, Lane Thomas

I like Lane Thomas. Nice name drop!

 

[sportscoach]

No you really can't "merit" Frazier getting paid more than he is worth, and WTF said anything about Espinal playing LF? Neither are Brantley so your comparison is bogus and you're trying to put words in my mouth. To me, both Frazier and Espinal are MIFers, and I clearly stated that we really don't need Espinal. I just like his play and I think he will show some significant power gains if given the opportunity to play full time. He's a very nice, young player and you clearly haven't done your homework on him. I feel like you're just looking to argue because he is the type of player you covet. What catches my eye with him is that he still has upside with his power.

Why would Vientos start in AA for Cleveland? Do you realize that the Mets AA and AAA teams are in the same leagues as Clevelands'? Vientos mashed Eastern League pitching after skipping A+ ball altogether. When promoted to AAA he didn't miss a beat in that sss. I think he's ready and yes there is certainly the possibility that he struggles like Miller did. However, there is also the possibility that he is what we don't have and won't get without taking on a larger salary and trading away some prize prospects in the upper levels. Like I said, it's where you prefer to place the risk. I think from an offensive perspective Vientos is right inline with Arias. I hold both in very high regard and I'm ready to see what they can do. The upside is intriguing to me. Why would you put more weight on what he was as a hitter as a 19 yr old in the lower levels then you do as a 21 yr old in the upper levels. Ever heard of a thing called development?

I would not acquire either Smith or Vientos for anything other than corner OF at this time even though their ability to play other positions is a good thing and could come in handy. Replacing Zimmer and Mercado with Smith and Vientos doesn't seem ridiculous at all to me. Most would probably prefer to trade for a player like Marte and I don't blame them. You're not getting him without giving up Espino and a few other top 10 prospects like Freeman, Jones, or Arias. I don't want to see that happen because they are damn near there. In fact, I want more like them in the areas that are lacking.

Look at Brantleys overall numbers... he lacks the numbers you expect from a LF player so hence why I said Brantley couldn't even play LF for you! You may not mean it to come out that way, but it honestly does sound like that when you start profiling positions...

Amed, Frazier and Espinal have been about the same hitter. Frazier at least plays a plus 2B, which is something Amed has never shown he can do. I personally think Amed's best position will be LF defensively.

When it comes to Vientos, I dont think he will be as ready for the bigs as soon as you think. This is the first time he really seemed to have everything together, but his SO jumped while his BB spiked down. His defense at 3B also hasn't been very good. I know gotta take minor league numbers with a grain of salt, but Mets already have another prospect who they have put at 3B over him in Baty. He needs to clean up his fielding as well. From my perspective he isnt as MLB ready as you think. Let's see how he plays in 22 since I think he will come back to earth some...

I understand what development is, but I don't trust big spikes in numbers to continue if they are almost outliers. I want to see if they can repeat before I actually say they are MLB ready.

 

[CATS44]

As the GM, there is no way that I am bringing in more freaking prospects....which is what everybody seems to want.

I already have 12 kids on the 40 man who have never played in MLB. Plus, I have three position players who have less than 300 MLB at bats. Plus, I have three relievers with less than 70 IP. More prospects don't help us win now.

And if we bring in more prospects, it means that we are gonna have to lose some of what we have...and the ones we have are better than the ones some want to trade for.

Kevin Smith is a 40 FV 3B who has played 40 innings in the outfield.

Espinal is a util inf that wasn't even a listed prospect with a FV.

Vientos is a 45 FV 3B, with a DH outlook.

We have literally over a dozen prospects as good or better than the best of that bunch.

Just say NO to more prospects.

 

[CDAV45]

Look at Brantleys overall numbers... he lacks the numbers you expect from a LF player so hence why I said Brantley couldn't even play LF for you! You may not mean it to come out that way, but it honestly does sound like that when you start profiling positions...

Amed, Frazier and Espinal have been about the same hitter. Frazier at least plays a plus 2B, which is something Amed has never shown he can do. I personally think Amed's best position will be LF defensively.

When it comes to Vientos, I dont think he will be as ready for the bigs as soon as you think. This is the first time he really seemed to have everything together, but his SO jumped while his BB spiked down. His defense at 3B also hasn't been very good. I know gotta take minor league numbers with a grain of salt, but Mets already have another prospect who they have put at 3B over him in Baty. He needs to clean up his fielding as well. From my perspective he isnt as MLB ready as you think. Let's see how he plays in 22 since I think he will come back to earth some...

I understand what development is, but I don't trust big spikes in numbers to continue if they are almost outliers. I want to see if they can repeat before I actually say they are MLB ready.

Stop with the Brantley comparisons for Christ's sake. He is a rare hitter that had pretty good power while with us, but that is starting to fade with age and his value along with it. Are you suggesting Adam Frazier is Michael Brantley with the bat?

Amed, Frazier,and Espinal are about the same hitter, but when it's said and done I think Espinal is the most well rounded of the bunch. I'd take Amed at $4.8M and Espinal at $.6M long before giving Frazier $7.6M. In all honesty, I think that's a good buy for Frazier as a 2B, but we don't really need a 2B do we? That's why I said let's forget about the idea of Espinal even though I like him.

Amed Rosario will not be playing LF for the Cleveland Guardians, and if for some ungodly reason he does then we're in a world of hurt. Amed can play 2B and probably get better defensive ratings there for what that's worth. I don't recall him really losing us any games as a SS though. I mentioned trading him to Detroit for Candelario.

You don't like "profiling positions" then take it up with every baseball executive in MLB. They do it because guys that can mash a baseball can change a game with one swing. That has value even if they have warts. Especially in the age of relentless shifting. You don't like that and I don't feel the need to change your mind to the reality of it.

I don't care about Vientos' defense at 3B. I'm pretty sure we have 3B covered. He can play a corner OF without embarrassing his team or himself. He also has pretty good bat to ball and OBP skills with a shit ton of power. He'll run into 25 accidentally.

 

[CDAV45]

As the GM, there is no way that I am bringing in more freaking prospects....which is what everybody seems to want.

I already have 12 kids on the 40 man who have never played in MLB. Plus, I have three position players who have less than 300 MLB at bats. Plus, I have three relievers with less than 70 IP. More prospects don't help us win now.

And if we bring in more prospects, it means that we are gonna have to lose some of what we have...and the ones we have are better than the ones some want to trade for.

Kevin Smith is a 40 FV 3B who has played 40 innings in the outfield.

Espinal is a util inf that wasn't even a listed prospect with a FV.

Vientos is a 45 FV 3B, with a DH outlook.

We have literally over a dozen prospects as good or better than the best of that bunch.

Just say NO to more prospects.

Who we getting that is such a sure thing to produce CATS? It's not everybody either, but there are a few of us.

With all the prospects on the 40 man, there are still a couple of holes. Mostly corner OF and maybe C.

We've moved on from Espinal regardless of how wrong you are about him.

Vientos doesn't have a "DH outlook". Where in the fuck did you come up with that? What his profile does have is an adequate glove and a big bat. You want to bank on someone like Happ then that's understandable. I won't be disappointed if he's acquired, but I'm not convinced he would be a better acquisition than Vientos.

If that prospect hits like Vientos, is either ready or close to it, and can play a position that we have little ready depth in then as the GM I'm jumping on them if the price is right. We also have Zimmer, Mercado, Chang, Clement, and Tena on the 40 man. Outside of Tena who would you lose sleep over being removed from the roster?

 

[sportscoach]

Stop with the Brantley comparisons for Christ's sake. He is a rare hitter that had pretty good power while with us, but that is starting to fade with age and his value along with it. Are you suggesting Adam Frazier is Michael Brantley with the bat?

Amed, Frazier,and Espinal are about the same hitter, but when it's said and done I think Espinal is the most well rounded of the bunch. I'd take Amed at $4.8M and Espinal at $.6M long before giving Frazier $7.6M. In all honesty, I think that's a good buy for Frazier as a 2B, but we don't really need a 2B do we? That's why I said let's forget about the idea of Espinal even though I like him.

Amed Rosario will not be playing LF for the Cleveland Guardians, and if for some ungodly reason he does then we're in a world of hurt. Amed can play 2B and probably get better defensive ratings there for what that's worth. I don't recall him really losing us any games as a SS though. I mentioned trading him to Detroit for Candelario.

You don't like "profiling positions" then take it up with every baseball executive in MLB. They do it because guys that can mash a baseball can change a game with one swing. That has value even if they have warts. Especially in the age of relentless shifting. You don't like that and I don't feel the need to change your mind to the reality of it.

I don't care about Vientos' defense at 3B. I'm pretty sure we have 3B covered. He can play a corner OF without embarrassing his team or himself. He also has pretty good bat to ball and OBP skills with a shit ton of power. He'll run into 25 accidentally.

My point is you profile a bit to much.

LF became the shoot I cannot play this hitter at 1B since I got someone there, so we shall throw him into LF... You can be an okay athlete and man LF in a fair amount of parks. I have always used LF completely different. I use it to normally hide away my weakest OF starter... CF is the best of them defensively, RF has the best arm then LF is the next best OF I got. I am not worried about does the bat fit here. I want my best three hitting OFs out there. Then my 4th OF is always a plus speed, plus defender that plays a three well. However they hit is irrelevant honestly to me...

I think when it comes to this, we will be oil and water always lol I like defense, high OBP and heavy contact. It feels like you prefer power before anything else when it comes to lineup.

On the fun side of things, to bad we cannot play OOTP together and each run a roster. You would lead the league in HRs and SLG% while I would in AVG, OBP and stolen bases lol

Btw, Vientos is horrible at 3B... he barely has above a .900 fielding percentage. He won't be sticking there long term, plus he doesn't have really any speed... He will be a 1B (he is listed at 6'4 so that ain't that bad of a position for him). You can throw him into LF but 1B will be his calling card in due time.

 

[sportscoach]

@CDAV45

Amed for Candelario is something the Guardians would take in a heartbeat but Tigers would laugh at you while they hang up the phone... Well it may not be that bad, but no way the Tigers would even entertain the thought. Tigers I actually think will try to keep him long term as well. Candelario had a 3.8 WAR with negative defense in 21, and he should be neutral/positive at 1B where he ends up I believe once Miggy leaves...

 

[CATS44]

Lets put this another way by looking at our 40 man again.

We have four established MLB SPs, six if you count TMac and his 153.2 IP.

We have one established MLB reliever in Clase, two if you count Karinchak.

We have five established position players in Jose, Hedges, Amed, Straw, and Franmil.

Zimmer, Chang, and Mercado are fringe players. Everybody else is a prospect.

At most we have 13 established MLB players to fill our 26 man roster.

Thats not a contending roster. Adding more prospects won't make it so.

***********

A look at the lineups of the two WS teams shows that 14 of the 32 players that had at least 100 PAs in the season were on the 'wrong side of 30.' Experience isn't a bad thing.

**********


The scouting report on Vientos states, 'his defensive ceiling is as a below average third baseman.' In spite of that, he has only played 109 innings in the outfield. I guess somebody could dream that he is an adequate defender, but nothing says so.

Again, some focus too much on power, and ignore everything else....like striking out nearly 30% of the time....and poor hit tools...and small sample sizes.

We have two OFs on the 40 man who have been far more consistent producers than Vientos in Palacios and Kwan.

*****

Who do I want to add? Geesh, from the beginning of this thread, I've been pretty clear about my shopping list, and I'm willing to trade prospect capital to acquire some of them.

They range from the elite to those that fit a specific need.

Laureano
Mullins
Reynolds
Edman
McNeil
Happ
Dominic Smith
Davis
Stallings


There are others, but that suffices.

Among FAs still on the board....

McCutchen
Pham
Gomes

I wanted Canha, but not at his price, and I had Calhoun on my list of FAs.

*********

There may be some interesting names available Wednesday that might fit.

 

[KluberSociety]

How about this @CDAV45 @CATS44 ?

Hopefully we'll all be around in 1-2 years so we can preserve the CDAV45 prospect roster in history and then check back in 1-2 years and see what actually came of these players? I'll set up an alert to notify me.

I'm personally very skeptical about guys like Vientos whose selling point is their bat which is described as a "see-ball hit-ball approach". Looking at his numbers on top of that he seems like a slightly more patient Oscar Gonzalez redux.

 

[CDAV45]

How about this @CDAV45 @CATS44 ?

Hopefully we'll all be around in 1-2 years so we can preserve the CDAV45 prospect roster in history and then check back in 1-2 years and see what actually came of these players? I'll set up an alert to notify me.

I'm personally very skeptical about guys like Vientos whose selling point is their bat which is described as a "see-ball hit-ball approach". Looking at his numbers on top of that he seems like a slightly more patient Oscar Gonzalez redux.

I'm cool with that. I'll be looking back like I always do anyway.

Lets compare OGon and Vientos. Last season OGon slashed 293/329/542/871 which is pretty damn good for a 23 yr old. Vientos slashed 281/352/581/933 which is really damn good for a 21 yr old in AA and a short time in AAA. Especially after skipping A+ ball altogether. Many say that going from A+ ball to AA is the most difficult jump in the minors. Well he did it extremely successfully being 3 yrs younger than the average player in AA. That carries significant weight with me. Take a look at what OGon did as a 21 yr old in comparison.

Vientos is a better defender than OGon and he's what I would call serviceable and will likely get better. I cracks me up when folks like coach condemn a 21 yr old kid because he doesn't look like a GGer.

I didn't just pick Vientos out of a hat. Whoever it was here mentioned Davis and/or Smith would be available. Well yeah they're available because they're not very good. I believe Vientos could be available as well because the Mets OF is full and they prefer Baty as their 3B because he is better defensively. Vientos could end up being like Davis and Smith, or he just might hit the ground running. The possibility for him remains. Not so much for the other 2 IMO. I think acquiring Vientos makes sense and fits in with the plan. Maybe they can extract more value by trading Jones than they would have to give to get Vientos? I don't know. It's an interesting conversation while we sit around and wait for everyone else to get their rosters set so we can sift through the leftovers.

 

[CDAV45]

Lets put this another way by looking at our 40 man again.

We have four established MLB SPs, six if you count TMac and his 153.2 IP.

We have one established MLB reliever in Clase, two if you count Karinchak.

We have five established position players in Jose, Hedges, Amed, Straw, and Franmil.

Zimmer, Chang, and Mercado are fringe players. Everybody else is a prospect.

At most we have 13 established MLB players to fill our 26 man roster.

Thats not a contending roster. Adding more prospects won't make it so.

***********

A look at the lineups of the two WS teams shows that 14 of the 32 players that had at least 100 PAs in the season were on the 'wrong side of 30.' Experience isn't a bad thing.

**********


The scouting report on Vientos states, 'his defensive ceiling is as a below average third baseman.' In spite of that, he has only played 109 innings in the outfield. I guess somebody could dream that he is an adequate defender, but nothing says so.

Again, some focus too much on power, and ignore everything else....like striking out nearly 30% of the time....and poor hit tools...and small sample sizes.

We have two OFs on the 40 man who have been far more consistent producers than Vientos in Palacios and Kwan.

*****

Who do I want to add? Geesh, from the beginning of this thread, I've been pretty clear about my shopping list, and I'm willing to trade prospect capital to acquire some of them.

They range from the elite to those that fit a specific need.

Laureano
Mullins
Reynolds
Edman
McNeil
Happ
Dominic Smith
Davis
Stallings


There are others, but that suffices.

Among FAs still on the board....

McCutchen
Pham
Gomes

I wanted Canha, but not at his price, and I had Calhoun on my list of FAs.

*********

There may be some interesting names available Wednesday that might fit.

Do you know what it will take to get Laureano, Mullins, Reynolds, Edman, or McNeil? You're not being realistic and the rest of your list isn't very impressive. Welcome to the reality my friend.

McCutchen and Pham are role players that won't put this team over the top without significant upgrades at other positions.

Gomes fits us perfect, along with about 8 other teams, maybe more. When is the last time Cleveland won a bidding war for a player?

Thank God MC/CA didn't want Canha which is what I told you from the get go, and I took a breath of relief when I saw Calhoun sign elsewhere.

Some folks focus on SO and ignore everything else. It isn't just about power with Vientos. What is it about an OBP of 352 for a power hitter that you don't like? He was 21 in AA and AAA after not having a single AB in A+. You don't think his plate discipline can or will improve? No, instead you want to trade all the valuable, near ready prospects(which won't happen) for 1 player or fill the roster with marginal players. I don't like either of those ideas, but we're all entitled to our opinions. I'll bank on upside and potential and eat crow when it doesn't work. You're pretty much going to do the same with what you want to do. It's a matter of preference and we've come this far with developing a fantastic farm system. I'd like to see it through and compliment it where/when needed. We're almost there even if the 22 season doesn't go the way we hope as fans.

I do agree that there may be some interesting names available Wednesday so we agree on that.

 

[KluberSociety]

Oh for sure I'd rather Vientos over OGon but I think they are a very similar type of player. I should've said "a rich man's OGon".

The idea of getting someone like McCutchen or Pham is because they ARE a significant upgrade at an affordable cost. Mainly because it allows us the flexibility to sit one of our numerous lefties.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

Reds sign Aramis Garcia to a minor league contract.
(Per MLB trade rumors)

 

[CDAV45]

Oh for sure I'd rather Vientos over OGon but I think they are a very similar type of player. I should've said "a rich man's OGon".

The idea of getting someone like McCutchen or Pham is because they ARE a significant upgrade at an affordable cost. Mainly because it allows us the flexibility to sit one of our numerous lefties.

Certainly respect your opinion KS, but I don't share your enthusiasm for Cutch. He's 35 and trending in the wrong direction. Pham will be 34 for the 22 season and is not as good as McCutchen. Just my take. Sadly, they both are significant upgrades to what we have, but not what I would like to see. I'd rather resign Eddie Rosario if possible.