Early 22 GM Thread! (Trade Ideas here)

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CATS44

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If you don't know or realize the difference between Espino in 2019 and the current version then I don't blame you for opinion. It lacks accurate data and analysis though. Espino is the stuff dreams are made of when it comes to SP and no team would do us the favor of giving us a SP prospect like him and we should do the same.

Reynolds' cost is astronomical in the same way JRam's is so conversing about it is silly. It's not going to happen. The cost of Mullins isn't much less and he's had 1 season of excellent production. I'm not selling a portion of my best prospects for that risk. The best path forward IMO is looking for a good young hitter that needs an opportunity if you cannot afford to fill a need or 2 via FA. A guy like Happ is still a good idea, but he should cost us much because he's just not that good. Vast improvement over what we had for sure, but not an elite hitter by any means.

Here's the thing for me CATS, and I believe I've mentioned it before. Prospects like Morris, Battenfield, Pilkington, Myers, Espino and Allen are our depth and you of all people should appreciate the quality of it. There are very good pitching prospects that are a little further away that have to have value to other organizations. Guys like Williams, Curry, Burns, Nikhazy, and Mace are high upside pitching prospects that can be used in a deal or deals. It doesn't have to be our best ready or near ready prospects. The same goes for the position players although I'd be willing to let Jones, Freeman, and/or Naylor go in the right deal. You might even be able to convince me to put Arias in the right deal too. We can trade either one of Plesac or Civale before the season starts and maybe the other one at the break. They can deal Rosario when the Correa dust settles. There's more than enough to fill a couple of needs.

Another factor in my reasoning is that I don't believe Bieber wants to or will be extended by Cleveland. He's a California boy and he'll probably be headed to the west coast at some point. If that is indeed the case then he'll be dealt before he hits FA.
I wasn't talking about Espino in 2019. I was talking about Espino right now in comparison to 18 SP prospects pre 2019 that were ranked higher than Espino right now...most were closer to MLB ready and had higher FV.

In terms of the immediate MLB production that many on here seem to expect from Espino once he gets here, the group of 18 should, but won't, throw cold water all over those expectations.

Its also not true that teams don't trade prospects like Espino. Six of those top 18 have been traded.
 

Gson

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What was the deal then?
6:59
Waters, Pache, Langeliers and Muller <=== more than enough for Shane Bieber or would the Guardians want MORE !??

Mark P
7:01

The Guardians would at least think about that one, but they'd still be likely to counter (or head to another team and say "here's what Atlanta will give us, can you top it?")

But I also don't think they're at all moving Bieber. He's controlled for three more years, and Cleveland traditionally doesn't move on their top guys until they have maybe a year and change left. Bieber by the 2023 trade deadline might be a more feasible option


The deal addresses both of the Guardians most pressing needs (ml or near ml ready catching and outfielder) and, potentially, replaces who the Guardians lost.. So, yes..they should think about it.. and no..they may not make the deal now..
 

CATS44

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Four prospects for Bieber? Three have to be added to the 40 man immediately.

Waters....solid defensive CF without much power...steals a lot of bases...Ks a lot...45+ FV.

Pache...elite defensive CF without much power and hasn't run much in years. 55 FV.

Langeliers...good catching prospect, very good defensively, questionable offense. 50 FV.

Muller....massive SP with big time heater, decent secondary pitches, and command issues trending the wrong way. 45 FV.

We have a Waters and Pache already playing CF. We have SP prospects up the kazoo. Langeliers is a copy of the defensive catchers our fans have learned to hate.

Don't even bother to listen.

Keep Straw. Extend Hedges. Wait for any of a dozen near MLB ready SPs.

Add to and contend with Bieber the next three years.
 

CDAV45

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Four prospects for Bieber? Three have to be added to the 40 man immediately.

Waters....solid defensive CF without much power...steals a lot of bases...Ks a lot...45+ FV.

Pache...elite defensive CF without much power and hasn't run much in years. 55 FV.

Langeliers...good catching prospect, very good defensively, questionable offense. 50 FV.

Muller....massive SP with big time heater, decent secondary pitches, and command issues trending the wrong way. 45 FV.

We have a Waters and Pache already playing CF. We have SP prospects up the kazoo. Langeliers is a copy of the defensive catchers our fans have learned to hate.

Don't even bother to listen.

Keep Straw. Extend Hedges. Wait for any of a dozen near MLB ready SPs.

Add to and contend with Bieber the next three years.
I agree with everything except the rest of the staff and their performance might make Bieber available by the 23 deadline or prior to the 24 season. This deal is not what I'd expect in return though. Not even close really. Pache and Waters' values are waning, Muller's struggled with his command, and Langeliers is a question mark with potential. Easy pass for me.
 
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CDAV45

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Extending Hedges might be a good idea with all of these young starters getting ready to make their debuts. These guys can locate their pitches so having a
C familiar with the league can only help. Damn if Yan Gomes wouldn't have been a good sign. Oh well.

Maybe there's a veteran trade target out there and we've been way off with our suggestions of acquiring a young inexperienced C.
 
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petes999

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I am usually a proponent of trading when we cant contend in coming year (2022). At first, seems like a decent haul but MTV has it graded 132 vs 63 or so .... Then you got Rule 5 issues .... Still have a load of players for next year in Hankins, Martinez, Curry, Torres, Naylor, Battenfield .... and few players like Zimmer, Mercado who I be glad to upgrade with Pache, Walters, Harris normally but we will lose some of our MILs/SP for prospects who may not break through. Need more establish guy like Reynolds but 3 yr contract for 4 yr doesnt make too much sense either.

Sometimes its luck of timing and you need room on 40 man as prospects are crap shoot... how would we looked with the prior year rumor of

Atlanta gets: Jose Ramirez, 3B

Cleveland gets: Joel De La Cruz, RHP / Shea Langeliers, C / Austin Riley, 3B / Drew Waters, OF

I wanted more at the time. We would have yelled about Riley at 3rd in January but feel like lottery winners in July. Langeliers would look good as Hedges backup in 22 and starter in 23 with Lavistada or Naylor. Yet, Waters is streaky .... good July but meh rest of year (reason Atlanta loaded up w OF at deadline). Cruz is now a minor league FA.

To trade Bieber, you got to have a bit more than Pache and Waters as an upgrade to our OF as our pitching would take a hit. I like the upside of Morris but you got to wait till Espino/Williams to have a good #1 in my opinion. We have good starting depth but no true star in waiting at AAA. Quantrill would be the defacto #1 until 2024.
 

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If you’re contemplating dealing Bieber and/or Ramirez Jerry Dipoto should be your first call.
Now he actually has a prospect that any club should never deal but if you’re bantering about those two…

Though you better be prepared to dole out a Wander-like deal soon:)
 

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If you’re contemplating dealing Bieber and/or Ramirez Jerry Dipoto should be your first call.
Now he actually has a prospect that any club should never deal but if you’re bantering about those two…

Though you better be prepared to dole out a Wander-like deal soon:)
Of course you know DiPoto's dying to deal that undealable prospect now that he's stated he won't deal him !!
 

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Yeah. That was Cherrington’s ask for Reynolds. Ah, no:)

Dipoto needs to cool his jets for roughly year.
 

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I understand what you're saying, but we're talking about different hitters with different attributes, and why Steamer would project him at .292 when his OBP was .352 as a 21 yr old in the highest levels makes little sense. What isn't good is Steamer's projection percentages. Anyway, I would expect either Vientos' or Yepez's OBP to take a hit in MLB, but if they can go from .352 to say .320 and work from there then we have something. Cancelling prospects because they don't have a .400 OBP is lunacy. Make a list of prospects that have done that for us if you have the time. I'd be very interested to see who was and who wasn't a part of that.

Kwan and Palacios have sweet swings with excellent bat control and discipline. Vientos cannot give you that at that level, but what he can do is mash the baseball when he makes contact and his performance last season shouldn't be underestimated. Worst case scenario with Vientos is something like Hunter Renfroe IMO.

Arias is arguably the best defensive SS in the Guardians' organization at any level, but he's no slouch with the bat either. The 21 season was his second in a row of very good offensive production while being 3-4 yrs younger than the average player. He skipped AA altogether as well. Something happened with him in 2019 because a switch was definitely flipped. If(emphasis on if) he continues to develop better plate/pitch discipline then we're looking at another Correa type SS IMO. He could certainly plateau and in that case you have yourself a defensive wizard with power.

Valera is a special hitter and if your standard is him then you wouldn't even be able to field a team.
I'm not "cancelling prospects" due to their OBP. I'm just saying these particular prospects don't have OBP as their calling card. I actually quite like what I see from Yepez statistically but I don't expect the fly ball approach (which has been yielding him a ton of HRs) to carry over into a great OBP.

Vientos reminds me of Noel - big power but lacks in approach so he's not going to walk a lot, but I like Noel more where he's at at his age. He might be a good player in the future but I just don't think he's going to do much in 2022.

I only brought up those 4 Guardians players to make a a point about what OBP-focused prospects look like. All 4 of those are also likely going to be providing more in the field, so it's down to how important that raw power is. I do like power, but there's multiple ways to score more runs than the other teams. Such as saving runs with defense or getting on base to be driven in... We also lack power in our system to some degree, so I don't mind adding it in the form of prospects. Outside of Noel, Valera, and Jones we don't have a lot of big power outside of fringey types like OGon and Planez who are long shots to ever be MLB regulars to me (hitting HRs is about the only value they provide).
 

CDAV45

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I'm not "cancelling prospects" due to their OBP. I'm just saying these particular prospects don't have OBP as their calling card. I actually quite like what I see from Yepez statistically but I don't expect the fly ball approach (which has been yielding him a ton of HRs) to carry over into a great OBP.

Vientos reminds me of Noel - big power but lacks in approach so he's not going to walk a lot, but I like Noel more where he's at at his age. He might be a good player in the future but I just don't think he's going to do much in 2022.

I only brought up those 4 Guardians players to make a a point about what OBP-focused prospects look like. All 4 of those are also likely going to be providing more in the field, so it's down to how important that raw power is. I do like power, but there's multiple ways to score more runs than the other teams. Such as saving runs with defense or getting on base to be driven in... We also lack power in our system to some degree, so I don't mind adding it in the form of prospects. Outside of Noel, Valera, and Jones we don't have a lot of big power outside of fringey types like OGon and Planez who are long shots to ever be MLB regulars to me (hitting HRs is about the only value they provide).
Don't get me wrong, I think OBP is a key indicator and my point was that Vientos' is pretty good. Especially when you take into account age and level which are also good indicators IMO. To state that he's not going to do something in the future because he isn't demonstrating it at an elite level in AAA as a 21 yr old is a bit too aggressive for me. Imagine if the Guardians took that approach toward their pitching prospects that don't have elite stuff.

He is an average defender at 3B and LF. He could become a 1B which may help his defensive profile. Either way, if he carries his offensive production into the majors then his average defense will be fine.

Getting on base to be driven in is only good if you have the people to drive you in. Cleveland doesn't have that and no successful team in MLB is built like that. There's something to be said about changing the game with one swing too, but a player has to be able to get to it relatively consistently and Vientos has demonstrated the ability to do that. In the end he may fail, but he is more likely to find success than someone like OGon IMO.
 

KluberSociety

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@CDAV45 I was more looking at the skills that would lead to OBP than their OBP itself. OBP over a small sample is not maybe the best predictor of OBP in the majors. But yeah it's not like I wouldn't like Vientos in our system, just a matter of valuation, and the power is the reason why he has value. We haven't particularly good at bringing out ability out of "raw" hitters which is what Vientos is, so if he was to be put on the trading block I doubt my bid would be that high.

I think we would even be fine trading some of our rawer position players when the time is right and harvesting the pitching factory for trade chips.

Also I don't think his defense would be league average. Typically "average" means like 20-50 percentile or something, where the top 50 percentile is considered good to great. What would you really expect in the field? 25 percentile?
 

Gson

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At the end of the day.. Mark Vientos has shown himself to be nothing more than a flawed corner defender.. He carries a big bat that has given him only a slightly above average hitting tool but has a chance to be more of a power over average hitter type player.. "Pedestrian" would be the way to describe him with his only true plus potential of having a puncher's/power hitter's chance at a career in MLB. He'd be a reasonable pinch hitter on a first division club and more on a poorer team..

Soft pass on the metsie..

If he's an addition to a larger deal that saw any one of Francisco Alvarez or JT Ginn coming to the north coast, then I'm interested..
 

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