• Changing RCF's index page, please click on "Forums" to access the forums.

Early 22 GM Thread! (Trade Ideas here)

Do Not Sell My Personal Information
There isn't a single person that doesn't think any of our young pitching staff isn't going to get better, but they have ceilings. They also have very good value that could help fill a couple of holes in this lineup. They may choose not to trade a SP, but will anyone here be surprised if they do?


And what did Espino do in those 50 IP in high A?
good.. to very good.. gave up some runs.. not "lights out" by most standards.. K'd a LOT of batters.. Repeating that success is not only needed.. he has to improve on that.. specifically.. fewer pitches per AB..
 
@CDAV45

Garza isnt starting... He didn't have a single start for them in 21 and honestly we need relievers not starters...

Espino isn't touching the MLB roster baring injuries even if he is having a good season... He is what 15ish on the depth chart for starting pitching going into the 22 season and that actually may still be high. I hate to say it but if we see Espino in Cleveland starting there is issues with the big league club that none of us want to see...

I mean first of all, Cleveland will have Bieber, Civale, Plesac, Quantrill and TMac

Then Columbus will be Morgan, Morris, Myers then we have Battenfield, Mota, McCarty, Pilkington, Scott, Tully all vying for starting spots...

Then who doesnt win at AAA will be mixed with who has AA has Logan Allen, Cantillo, Curry...

High A has Espino, Hickman, Burns, Gaddis,

I don't see how Espino goes over Morgan, Morris, Myers, Battenfield, Pilkington, Logan Allen, Cantillo, Curry, Burns, etc,

The kid may have talent, but so do the rest of these guys and honestly are older as well. Espino doesn't even need to be protected until the 24 season... Baring injury we aren't seeing him outside of spring training until late 23/early 24...
 
good.. to very good.. gave up some runs.. not "lights out" by most standards.. K'd a LOT of batters.. Repeating that success is not only needed.. he has to improve on that.. specifically.. fewer pitches per AB..
I believe that any minor league pitcher whose average 9IP has less than 6 hits, 3 walks, and over 16 strikeouts needs to be challenged. I honestly don't think that hitters are the ultimate challenge for Espino at any level. The only thing that will hold Espino back is Espino. His mechanics are better. His off speed pitches improved. He reduced his walks. He increased his SO rate. I think starting him off in AA is what is best for him, but clearly I'm not in the FO or on the development staff. They may totally disagree with me.
 
@CDAV45

Garza isnt starting... He didn't have a single start for them in 21 and honestly we need relievers not starters...

Espino isn't touching the MLB roster baring injuries even if he is having a good season... He is what 15ish on the depth chart for starting pitching going into the 22 season and that actually may still be high. I hate to say it but if we see Espino in Cleveland starting there is issues with the big league club that none of us want to see...

I mean first of all, Cleveland will have Bieber, Civale, Plesac, Quantrill and TMac

Then Columbus will be Morgan, Morris, Myers then we have Battenfield, Mota, McCarty, Pilkington, Scott, Tully all vying for starting spots...

Then who doesnt win at AAA will be mixed with who has AA has Logan Allen, Cantillo, Curry...

High A has Espino, Hickman, Burns, Gaddis,

I don't see how Espino goes over Morgan, Morris, Myers, Battenfield, Pilkington, Logan Allen, Cantillo, Curry, Burns, etc,

The kid may have talent, but so do the rest of these guys and honestly are older as well. Espino doesn't even need to be protected until the 24 season... Baring injury we aren't seeing him outside of spring training until late 23/early 24...
Listen carefully coach. I said Garza is a depth SP. I don't expect him to be a starter and if he is then several things went wrong. I'm not, nor did I ever predict him to be in the rotation.

You're crazy if you don't think the Guardians are not going to sign a BP arm or 3.

You don't know what is in the plans for Espino, but I'll tell you this much. When he is ready then there isn't a single pitcher on the Guardians staff or in the system that will hold him back. If he's proven himself during the 22 season and the Guardians need a boost in the rotation for a playoff run then you bet your ass he'll see some time. You seem to want to lump him in with all the other SP prospects when the reality is that he is on an island all by himself. We haven't had a SP prospect like this kid since CC.

Where these kids start the season has little to do with "who wins" and more to do with what level best suits their developmental needs.

Morgan, McCarty, Scott, Tully, and Mota probably don't need to be in this conversation. Mota is likely BP bound anyway if they can get him throwing strikes. These guys are organizational filler. Except for Mota who has good upside, but hasn't been able to harness it yet. I think Morgan might be a decent #5.

Yes there is a logjam of SP in the upper levels. I've been saying that for quite some time now. What has this FO done when there is SP depth? How the season unfolds will be a big determining factor in a lot of things. There's a chance that none of the SP are dealt and everyone remains idle, but there is also an chance that you see not only 1, but 2 SP dealt throughout the season. It goes without saying that injuries change the plans in a hurry. Let's hope that's not an issue for the Guardians in 22.
 
Last edited:
Listen carefully coach. I said Garza is a depth SP. I don't expect him to be a starter and if he is then several things went wrong. I'm not, nor did I ever predict him to be in the rotation.

You're crazy if you don't think the Guardians are going to sign a BP arm or 3.

You don't know what is in the plans for Espino, but I'll tell you this much. When he is ready then there isn't a single pitcher on the Guardians staff or in the system that will hold him back. If he's proven himself during the 22 season and the Guardians need a boost in the rotation for a playoff run then you bet your ass he'll see some time. You seem to want to lump him in with all the other SP prospects when the reality is that he is on an island all by himself. We haven't had a SP prospect like this kid since CC.

Where these kids start the season has little to do with "who wins" and more to do with what level best suits their developmental needs.

Morgan, McCarty, Scott, Tully, and Mota probably don't need to be in this conversation. Mota is likely BP bound anyway if they can get him throwing strikes. These guys are organizational filler. Except for Mota who has good upside, but hasn't been able to harness it yet. I think Morgan might be a decent #5.

Yes there is a logjam of SP in the upper levels. I've been saying that for quite some time now. What has this FO done when there is SP depth? How the season unfolds will be a big determining factor in a lot of things. There's a chance that none of the SP are dealt and everyone remains idle, but there is also an chance that you see not only 1, but 2 SP dealt throughout the season. It goes without saying that injuries change the plans in a hurry. Let's hope that's not an issue for the Guardians in 22.

Morgan isnt a filler though, he's actually a pretty legit 4/5 starter in MLB and would be on a lot of clubs... Also there will be some kids trying to win spots since there is a bunch of arms with AA and AAA experience trying to stay at AAA that have better talent behind them gunning for their spot at the same time. It will be way more brutal than you are saying...

Oh I know they are going to sign BP arms, but Garza is done as a starter... He will be a multi inning reliever, but like Stephan, he won't be starting again anytime soon. He may open/follow once in awhile, but won't be a true starter in the sense of going 5-6 innings... We don't need him to start since we got more starters than actual bullpen arms. We have to start actually converting starters to relievers since we lack relievers in the organization.

We aren't seeing Espino in 22, thats a fact in my mind, He is still developing and honestly he is far down the actual list in the depth chart, that if we do, its almost 99.99% a bad thing. It has nothing to do with what he can do, it has everything to do with, he is nowhere ready to be in the pros. He has had no innings at AA, and normally going into a season with no college experience and no AA experience, normally leaves a person not being considered MLB ready. Plus they likely are looking to ramp up his innings, but that really only gives him 25 starts at maximum and with 15+ being likely at AA, there just won't be any innings left for MLB spot.
 
Morgan isnt a filler though, he's actually a pretty legit 4/5 starter in MLB and would be on a lot of clubs... Also there will be some kids trying to win spots since there is a bunch of arms with AA and AAA experience trying to stay at AAA that have better talent behind them gunning for their spot at the same time. It will be way more brutal than you are saying...

Oh I know they are going to sign BP arms, but Garza is done as a starter... He will be a multi inning reliever, but like Stephan, he won't be starting again anytime soon. He may open/follow once in awhile, but won't be a true starter in the sense of going 5-6 innings... We don't need him to start since we got more starters than actual bullpen arms. We have to start actually converting starters to relievers since we lack relievers in the organization.

We aren't seeing Espino in 22, thats a fact in my mind, He is still developing and honestly he is far down the actual list in the depth chart, that if we do, its almost 99.99% a bad thing. It has nothing to do with what he can do, it has everything to do with, he is nowhere ready to be in the pros. He has had no innings at AA, and normally going into a season with no college experience and no AA experience, normally leaves a person not being considered MLB ready. Plus they likely are looking to ramp up his innings, but that really only gives him 25 starts at maximum and with 15+ being likely at AA, there just won't be any innings left for MLB spot.
I think we agree on Garza, but our words are getting minced. I don't view him as one of our SP. He can start if needed, but the chances are nil at best. Same goes for Stephan.

We'll agree to disagree on Espino. I think where you and I disagree on the subject is that you view Espino as a typical SP prospect and he's not. He just missed 100 IP last season so increasing his workload by 40 IP isn't outside of the norm. He's not a high effort pitcher so hopefully there is no reason to limit his natural progression. I didn't say Espino was "MLB ready" either. I said that if he picks up where he left off last season then he could be a late season possibility. I fully expect him to treat AA hitters the very same way he treated A+ hitters.

Morgan is absolutely filler and he is nowhere near a #4. He's a #5 at best with his likely role being long relief and mop up duties. He's not keeping any of the SP prospects down. It's just my opinion, but I think Garza has better upside as a SP than Morgan. Thing is, Garza has better upside as a reliever too and that's where he'll be used.

The one guy we don't factor much is Logan S. Allen. How Tito and the gang feels about him along with his ST performance(if there is one) will factor in what happens as well.

We go on and on about the MIF logjam, but the SP logjam is as bad or worse.
 
I get what you are saying as he had 90 inn in 2019 and 60 inn in 2021. However, even Triston and his slight frame got up to 120 inn last year after 140 inn in 2017 and 90 in 18 and none in 2019.

I do see him as a bullpen callup this year to get his feet wet in limited innings. But, you just can't just take stats and use that to project as these guys are working not only instructs but alot in offseason.

Triston call up in 20 surprised most of us as we thought he was going to need ramp up time. I can see Morgan/Myer/Morris/Plink being used in 21 in that order. However, as Morris has most upside, I wouldn't be shocked for him to be the 22 surprise and jump Myer for acouple spot starts, especially if in contention due to expanded playoffs. They can always have him go 4-5 inn in 25 starts (in AAA and MLB) like McK last year.

And, no CDAV, Garza, just like Stephan, isnt going to be converted back to a starter now .... Lets focus on 12+ starters we will have in AAA and AA first ... Do we need to pull out IndianPro projected 6 man rotations for all 4 leagues? Many starters will see our mlb staff in relief role only already (who coyld start for other teams) due to limited opportunity. Dont need to add to confusion by trying to make a reliever back into starter.

Big difference between TMac and Morris.

As you mentioned, TMac had thrown 143 IP in a season previously. The 141.1 he threw last year was hardly out of line.

He had also thrown 332 IP before hitting MLB.

No two situations are the same, but if the org put the same limitations on Morris as on TMac, Morris wouldnt hit 100 IP this year.

*********

On other notes...

Garza and Stephan are relievers...period. I dont know why there is any question of that. One thing this org is not lacking in thru the top three levels is SP prospect depth.

*********

If an injury were to occur to one of our five rotation members in Spring Training severe enough to keep him out five or six turns thru the rotation, my guess is that Allen will be next in line, not Morgan.

If Allen had options, he would probably be #6 anyway.

Folks forget how really young Allen is. He is younger than both Morgan and Morris, and about the same age as TMac, Pilkington, and Battenfield. He's only about a year older than Allen Jr, Gaddis, and Curry.

The problem with Allen is the lack of an option, and that hurts our immediate depth.

***********

Morgans value is the same as Plutkos.....the ability to be an expendable AAAA pitcher that bounces between Cleveland and Columbus as needed. When his options run out, so does his value. Like Plutko, he will have several younger prospects whiz by him as they gain pro experience.

Morgan may be #6/7 today, but I highly doubt that anybody views him as that in a year.
 
Last edited:
Big difference between TMac and Morris.

As you mentioned, TMac had thrown 143 IP in a season previously. The 141.1 he threw last year was hardly out of line.

He had also thrown 332 IP before hitting MLB.

No two situations are the same, but if the org put the same limitations on Morris as on TMac, Morris wouldnt hit 100 IP this year.

*********

On other notes...

Garza and Stephan are relievers...period. I dont know why there is any question of that. One thing this org is not lacking in thru the top three levels is SP prospect depth.

*********

If an injury were to occur to one of our five rotation members in Spring Training severe enough to keep him out five or six turns thru the rotation, my guess is that Allen will be next in line, not Morgan.

If Allen had options, he would probably be #6 anyway.

Folks forget how really young Allen is. He is younger than both Morgan and Morris, and about the same age as TMac, Pilkington, and Battenfield. He's only about a year older than Allen Jr, Gaddis, and Curry.

The problem with Allen is the lack of an option, and that hurts our immediate depth.

***********

Morgans value is the same as Plutkos.....the ability to be an expendable AAAA pitcher that bounces between Cleveland and Columbus as needed. When his options run out, so does his value. Like Plutko, he will have several younger prospects whiz by him as they gain pro experience.

Morgan may be #6/7 today, but I highly doubt that anybody views him as that in a year.

Stephan and Garza were both starters until the 21 season, so its not actually that far of a stretch for them to be converted back... Stephan was rumored to be when we got him switched back to SP in year one, but it doesn't seem like he will now cause of needs...

Plus why are people hating on Morgan so much... he had a sub 4 ERA in his last what 5 starts, and last 13 was a 4.37... He has one of the best changeups in baseball, if he finds another complimentary pitch to his fastball-changeup then honestly he will go from a 5th/6th starter to almost a 3rd starter...
 
Some interesting questions & response comments during the Anthony Franco Chat at MLB Tr Jotcast:

[ link: https://www.jotcast.com/chat/mlbtr-chat-1-19-22-12256.html ]
==================================================================================
Austin Hays: Everyone talks about Ced, but what is my trade value like after a 3WAR, 20HR season? Or do I need to prove I can stay healthy first?
Anthony Franco: Sure, he'd have value. Makes a lot of sense for someone like the Guardians if the O's move him
But Hays feels like another guy Baltimore should probably just keep, since he's affordable and controllable long enough into the future he might be a decent piece of the core
==================================================================================
MoonBeamMcSwine: Heliot Ramos and Patrick Bailey to the Guardians for Zack Plesac.. who says no?
Anthony Franco: Hmm, this one's interesting. Giants might be a little concerned about Plesac's meh strikeout rate, but I think there's a good case for both teams to consider this
==================================================================================
Farhan Zaidi: Am I really content with a staff of desclafani (terrible second half), wood (injury prone), Cobb (really?) and Webb (elite for 6months) with $100million of cash burning a hole in my pocket?
Anthony Franco: [Zaidi is Giants' president of baseball ops] No, I don't believe they're done. Rodón makes sense there, and I think they'd swing a trade for another starter if they don't sign him
==================================================================================
I liked the Austin Hays suggestion.. Sadly, a deal with the Orioles.. is never easy and should only be a surprise.. Otherwise, any discussions in the media will not help/bode well for a deal to be consummated.. Another O to consider is Santander. similar in many ways. Anthony Franco's assessment of a Cedric Mullins deal seems to be spot on. i.e. not happening.. W/R to a Hays or Santander deal.. there should be a group of 2024/2025 prospects that should be enough.. or a hard pass ensues..
==================================================================================
FWiW.. The Heliot Ramos/Bailey suggestion shows a slight overpay at the BTV site.. otherwise, it might be a reasonable deal. Patrick Bailey, the switch hitting former first round pick out of NCState by the SF Giants, wouldn't be fully & immediately ready as a major league catcher (primarily with the lumber) but every other part of his game would be.. especially his command and leadership as a catcher.. That is very impressive. Heliot Ramos is an 'athlete first' and a baseball player second.. It appears that his AAA results are showing he is truly starting to come into his own as a baseball players.. Helluva set of tools.. perhaps a step slower than Jo Adell, but every other part of his game is there..
==================================================================================
The Farhan Zaidi contentment comment feeds into the Zack Plesac comment, however, are unrelated, otherwise..
==================================================================================

Thoughts?..
 
Hays is a little overrated in my mind... Don't get me wrong he isn't a bad player, but his overall numbers don't support the likely price for him. By BTV his value is equal to Jones, Amed or Straw in a straight swap... Baltimore isnt going to trade him just to trade him, so it would have to be a swap of something like Jones plus Battenfield for Hays... That is something I wouldn't do... So maybe a swap of Hays and Baumler for Jones and Battenfield @CATS44 @Gson either of you willing to do something like that?

I want nothing to do with Heliot Ramos, we have more proven MiLB Of prospects in my mind. I am not against Bailey though. Bailey though isnt near ready since he hasnt even played at AA yet and hes on the 40 man. We would have to carry 4 catchers in 23 if we want bailey.

So it would be a completely different trade if San Fran wants Plesac, who is at 24.1 value... and looking through the moves, I want nothing to do with San Fran if Bart isnt involved, so that is a no go for me...
 
Stephan and Garza were both starters until the 21 season, so its not actually that far of a stretch for them to be converted back... Stephan was rumored to be when we got him switched back to SP in year one, but it doesn't seem like he will now cause of needs...

Plus why are people hating on Morgan so much... he had a sub 4 ERA in his last what 5 starts, and last 13 was a 4.37... He has one of the best changeups in baseball, if he finds another complimentary pitch to his fastball-changeup then honestly he will go from a 5th/6th starter to almost a 3rd starter...

Right? Morgan came off injury, got rushed to the Majors with only 27 career IP at AAA (only 22 after injury last year) and outpitched Hentges, Mejia, L. Allen and Moss, who shat the bed as SP and were everyone's favorite depth options. Two are off the 40 now. Morgan's adapted to the league, increased velo, sharpened his breaking ball. He's far from a finished player at 25. Plutko didn't have any plus pitch, Morgan has a plus to ++ changeup.

Instead of giving the guy some respect, they crap on him and talk about Garza as SP lol, who bombed as SP in A+ and was a shitty RP last year.

Morgan is a better Tomlin, low WHIP, gives up HR, will have a ML career
 
Stephan and Garza were both starters until the 21 season, so its not actually that far of a stretch for them to be converted back... Stephan was rumored to be when we got him switched back to SP in year one, but it doesn't seem like he will now cause of needs...

Plus why are people hating on Morgan so much... he had a sub 4 ERA in his last what 5 starts, and last 13 was a 4.37... He has one of the best changeups in baseball, if he finds another complimentary pitch to his fastball-changeup then honestly he will go from a 5th/6th starter to almost a 3rd starter...
Who's hating on Morgan? Some of you guys need to sharpen your comprehension skills. There's no hate when someone views him as a #5 because that's exactly what he is. Morgan is nothing but insurance/depth for this organization. "Almost a 3rd starter" is laughable unless it's for a non-competitive team with no SP depth. FFS if he's "almost a 3rd starter" then lets deal him for a good corner OF bat. Think there would be any takers? That's rhetorical because everyone here knows it wouldn't happen unless it's a big contract that a team is looking to unload.

I'll wait to see if "Morgan is a better Tomlin". If he is it's marginal at best which still makes him a #5.

Edited to say that I like the kid and I find myself rooting for him to succeed, but the talent is limited. He's the underdog everyone loves.
 
Last edited:

Rubber Rim Job Podcast Video

Episode 3-13: "Backup Bash Brothers"

Rubber Rim Job Podcast Spotify

Episode 3:11: "Clipping Bucks."
Top