Early 22 GM Thread! (Trade Ideas here)

[sportscoach]

A trade of Plesac for Haniger would have to include additional upgrades for 2022.

We are not trading away a SP this year, unless it makes the 2022 much better.

Mariners are looking to contend in 22 as well so they cannot just give up a lot themselves from the main team and if anything Gson's original trade didn't upgrade anything for 22 honestly... I was just making a counter move since no way would the Mariners GM take that deal...

Also in my scenario at the beginning of the thread, I still traded prospects for a second bat, so if we did get prospects back, we could afford to get another move done as well. Either way I dont think we win in 22 by trading Plesac for a bat unless we trade for a second bat as well...

 

[CDAV45]

Plesac might not be as good a pitcher as Bauer or Clevinger....

(He is better than Bauer at the same point in their careers and a lot healthier than Clevinger)

But his contract situation is light years better....and GMs trade contracts as much as players.

The Guardians will not trade him for a short term upgrade...and the time for trading SPs for prospects has passed.

In terms of 2022, it would be Plesac for Haniger, and that wouldn't make the Guardians better next year.

CATS, I may agree completely with what you say here, but I do have a reservation that you probably agree with as well. I think Plesac's perceived value by many here is not based on his overall body of work as a major league pitcher, but this injury interrupted season for which he hasn't really had he time to "round into form". Zach Plesac is not a TOR SP, but he's certainly a cheap, long term controlled MOR SP that has good value IMO.

 

[CATS44]

CATS, I may agree completely with what you say here, but I do have a reservation that you probably agree with as well. I think Plesac's perceived value by many here is not based on his overall body of work as a major league pitcher, but this injury interrupted season for which he hasn't really had he time to "round into form". Zach Plesac is not a TOR SP, but he's certainly a cheap, long term controlled MOR SP that has good value IMO.

Agree completely.

IMO Plesac is undervalued by many fans.

As I've mentioned, his work thru his first 300 IP and at the same ages compares well against most of the SPs we've had in the recent past. Many of the things that are being said about him now were also said...in perhaps different ways...about Kluber, Cookie, and Bauer.

That doesn't mean that I think Plesac will be as good over time as those three, because we get to look back in hindsight...and not many SPs become Kluber-Cookie-Bauer.

I also think that opinions of Plesac are shaded by his relationships to Bauer and Clevinger, and by his...um...unfortunate and immature choices....and by Bimbos hint that he won't be here long. I tend to agree that he does not seem to fit the organizational culture, which I view as very important...and guys that don't fit the culture don't usually last very long.

But he also suffers from what I call the Peralta disease. Jhonny, a very good player, was ostracized because he wasn't Omar. Plesac isn't Bieber or the later versions of Kluber, Cookie, and Bauer.

We tend to think that MORs are bad things. But a 26 yr old MOR with a clean health record, and still in pre arby, is an extremely valuable pitcher.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

If we want to make a significant upgrade next season, (both in talent and in payroll), then we should target very attractive players. Names like Winker, Haniger, Gurriel Jr., and Adell. Are any of them on the market? Hell no. But we have the ammunition , both I pitchers and in prospects, to make an attractive offer.
Yes, we would be giving up some valuable pieces. But unless you're willing to have another season of Big Harold, then a move has gotta be made.

Teams that don't make the playoffs should be willing to listen.

 

[CDAV45]

If we want to make a significant upgrade next season, (both in talent and in payroll), then we should target very attractive players. Names like Winker, Haniger, Gurriel Jr., and Adell. Are any of them on the market? Hell no. But we have the ammunition , both I pitchers and in prospects, to make an attractive offer.
Yes, we would be giving up some valuable pieces. But unless you're willing to have another season of Big Harold, then a move has gotta be made.

Teams that don't make the playoffs should be willing to listen.

I understand that many might not agree and have legitimate reason not to, but I would look to get Adell and Stassi from the Angels for Plesac. Adell is a risk, but he's performed much better of late and is so very talented. The Angels are loaded with major league OFers and could a good SP or 2.

 

[sportscoach]

I understand that many might not agree and have legitimate reason not to, but I would look to get Adell and Stassi from the Angels for Plesac. Adell is a risk, but he's performed much better of late and is so very talented. The Angels are loaded with major league OFers and could a good SP or 2.

I am not touching Stassi... he's a negative fielder with not so great offensive numbers... we are pitching first team so having a crappy defensive catcher will not work.

Now I am not against trading for an OF type of prospect (which Adell is about at that level).

So a deal of something like Plesac plus maybe a prospect/PTBNL for OF Adell, SS Kyren Paris/Arol Vera, RHP Landon Marceaux, MIF Kristin Monroe...

All three prospects don't need to be protected anytime soon...

 

[CDAV45]

I am not touching Stassi... he's a negative fielder with not so great offensive numbers... we are pitching first team so having a crappy defensive catcher will not work.

Now I am not against trading for an OF type of prospect (which Adell is about at that level).

So a deal of something like Plesac plus maybe a prospect/PTBNL for OF Adell, SS Kyren Paris/Arol Vera, RHP Landon Marceaux, MIF Kristin Monroe...

All three prospects don't need to be protected anytime soon...

What are you talking about? He is not anywhere near a "negative fielder" and is having a well above average offensive season for the 2nd season in a row. He moves well on the bases and is a well above average framer. I have no idea where you got your information, but he's a helluva lot better than what we currently have.

This organization doesn't need more prospects Coach. If it's not a deal to make the big league club better then I probably want nothing to do with it. Paris, Vera, Marceaux, and Monroe bring very little to nothing to this organization. Adell and Stassi immediately make this team better and I don't want to here about "pitching first" mambo jambo when it comes to Stassi. He's right there with what we've got due to his framing and his offense is light years better.

Edited to say again that some may not like the idea and have good reason, but your reason to avoid Stassi just isn't accurate.

 

[sportscoach]

What are you talking about? He is not anywhere near a "negative fielder" and is having a well above offensive season for the 2nd season in a row. He moves well on the bases and is a well above average framer. I have no idea where you got your information, but he's a helluva lot better than what we currently have.

This organization doesn't need more prospects Coach. If it's not a deal to make the big league club better then I probably want nothing to do with it. Paris, Vera, Marceaux, and Monroe bring very little to nothing to this organization. Adell and Stassi immediately make this team better and I don't want to here about "pitching first" mambo jambo when it comes to Stassi. He's right there with what we've got due to his framing and his offense is light years better.

Edited to say again that some may not like the idea and have good reason, but your reason to avoid Stassi just isn't accurate.

First off, you can never have too many prospects, if we can pick up a solid prospect in any deal, it will happen...

Next, Stassi is under contract for one more season and is likely going to cost 3-4 million in 22 (he isnt even guarenteed to be kept at his price by the Angels). He has played 275 games in his career, only has touched 80 games in two seasons, this year and 19 and career average in .227/.309/.354 while Perez is at .208/.299/.363... and that is in 484 games. Now numbers wise the last couple seasons, yes Stassi is better offensively, but Perez is still better defensively than Stassi, via baseball reference his career dWAR is 1.9 and its at 0.7 in 81 games this season... Perez has 7.8 dWAR... and 0.3 in 38 games, so Perez is honestly still superior by a long margin in defense...

Next fact is in the 275 games he has 23 passed ball, Perez has 19 in 475. Stassi has below average range factor in the field while Perez has been above average. Stassi has thrown out 20% of would be base stealers while Perez is at 41% (league average is around 26% normally with about a +/- of about 2%). Stassi may have some good factors, but his blocking and ability to throw out runners is way below the skillset of Perez and Hedges by a good enough margin. Plus he also doesn't know any of the pitchers. So he would have to learn all the pitchers while costing a couple million less than Perez would, he would have a ton more work than Perez would in 22. Perez' problem is staying healthy, but otherwise he is superior to Stassi in just about everyway but his bat. But then again Perez in 19 put up better numbers than Stassi every has...

Stassi makes no sense to me... if we are going to try and get a catcher, I'd rather see us get a Bart/young catcher at AAA/just cracking the MLB club than a guy who isn't superior overall to Perez or even Yan Gomes in free agency. You value his bat way too much and honestly it's not as good as you are thinking it is either.

 

[Gson]

What are you talking about? He is not anywhere near a "negative fielder" and is having a well above average offensive season for the 2nd season in a row. He moves well on the bases and is a well above average framer. I have no idea where you got your information, but he's a helluva lot better than what we currently have.

This organization doesn't need more prospects Coach. If it's not a deal to make the big league club better then I probably want nothing to do with it. Paris, Vera, Marceaux, and Monroe bring very little to nothing to this organization. Adell and Stassi immediately make this team better and I don't want to here about "pitching first" mambo jambo when it comes to Stassi. He's right there with what we've got due to his framing and his offense is light years better.

Edited to say again that some may not like the idea and have good reason, but your reason to avoid Stassi just isn't accurate.

Stassi is an average to above average defensive backstop.. His contract status has him going into his Arb III season in 2022 (probably about $ 3-3.5 MM), so, he'll be a one year rental.. Stassi's best defensive metric is DRS (defensive runs saved) otherwise..decent..

Jo Adell is finishing the season on the IL with a muscle strain... He spent most of the 2021 season in the minors (AAA Pacific Coast League that is notorious for being a hitters paradise) He put up some good numbers...the kind of numbers that get you promoted to the big league club.. He started his ML career with the Angels in August where he struggled a bit.. but really turned it on upon the calendar changing in September.. His showing in September was impressive.. The rule of thumb is: "..don't trust results in March/April and September.." With the limited roster expansion in September, that might not be the case with Adell. The Angels absolutely need SP's.. Plesac would be a good pick up for the Angels..

As far as a deal is concerned.. Adell, Bush and Stassi to the Guardians for Plesac, Kwan and Jet.. makes some sense for both clubs.. This deal would certainly help the Guardians in 2022 filling two spots in the everyday lineup immediately. The addition of Ky Bush, could be three years or more away, would help the future of the Guardians. If Bush is targeted as an LHRP, then sooner..

Thoughts?..

 

[sportscoach]

Stassi is an average to above average defensive backstop.. His contract status has him going into his Arb III season in 2022 (probably about $ 3-3.5 MM), so, he'll be a one year rental.. Stassi's best defensive metric is DRS (defensive runs saved) otherwise..decent..

Jo Adell is finishing the season on the IL with a muscle strain... He spent most of the 2021 season in the minors (AAA Pacific Coast League that is notorious for being a hitters paradise) He put up some good numbers...the kind of numbers that get you promoted to the big league club.. He started his ML career with the Angels in August where he struggled a bit.. but really turned it on upon the calendar changing in September.. His showing in September was impressive.. The rule of thumb is: "..don't trust results in March/April and September.." With the limited roster expansion in September, that might not be the case with Adell. The Angels absolutely need SP's.. Plesac would be a good pick up for the Angels..

As far as a deal is concerned.. Adell, Bush and Stassi to the Guardians for Plesac, Kwan and Jet.. makes some sense for both clubs.. This deal would certainly help the Guardians in 2022 filling two spots in the everyday lineup immediately. The addition of Ky Bush, could be three years or more away, would help the future of the Guardians. If Bush is targeted as an LHRP, then sooner..

Thoughts?..

I think the Indians would want another prospect and if I was the Angels I'd rather have a Miller or Chang than Jet for 22 since most of the MIF prospects are farther away than the OF prospects. Though the Angels also need to get rid of some cap and contracts since their starting OF is old (Fowler and Upton)... That being stated that way, getting Jet and Kwan makes some sense if ya lose Adell, but they don't have a SS honestly either for 22....

I never thought the Angels was a good match, I dont like Stassi over Perez even if the price of Stassi is financially lower, plus with the age of Upton, Lagares and Fowler, I am thinking they don't want to move Adell or Marsh since on paper they should mix well with a healthy Trout... Plus none of their top prospects currently (outside of Detmers) are even close to the pros... I know they want a SP, but trading away an asset that's MLB ready when you don't have a proper replacement doesn't make sense to me. I think they will target an MLB SP, but it wouldn't be for Adell...

 

[Gson]

I think the Indians would want another prospect and if I was the Angels I'd rather have a Miller or Chang than Jet for 22 since most of the MIF prospects are farther away than the OF prospects. Though the Angels also need to get rid of some cap and contracts since their starting OF is old (Fowler and Upton)... That being stated that way, getting Jet and Kwan makes some sense if ya lose Adell, but they don't have a SS honestly either for 22....

I never thought the Angels was a good match, I dont like Stassi over Perez even if the price of Stassi is financially lower, plus with the age of Upton, Lagares and Fowler, I am thinking they don't want to move Adell or Marsh since on paper they should mix well with a healthy Trout... Plus none of their top prospects currently (outside of Detmers) are even close to the pros... I know they want a SP, but trading away an asset that's MLB ready when you don't have a proper replacement doesn't make sense to me. I think they will target an MLB SP, but it wouldn't be for Adell...

Ok... add miller or chang to the deal and call it done..

Yes.. jet/kwan were added to provide ML ready OF'ers of the youthful variety..

I like Stassi as an addition to either Hedges or Perez..

As far as their old / expensive guys.. that's the Angels problem.. and should remain their problem..

 

[CATS44]

We can talk all the trades we want.

But guys like Miller, Chang, and Johnson...or Kwan and Gonzalez...won't move the needle in any trade.

Again, trade involving Plesac has to make the team considerably better in 2022. Its not gonna be another year of tryouts.

Adell, although extremely talented, is still in tryout mode.

Stassi, at the very best, is an incremental improvement.

 

[KluberSociety]

I don't think it's worth shaking up the catching, just due to the relationships they already have with the pitching core. That's one area where I'd just eat the terrible offense (and try to bring Roberto back) because we've done very well with our pitchers.

I'd rather have a proven asset rather than "potential" at outfield too just due to the hole that lies there now which needs filling.

As to the OF situation I also agree that there's no point of keeping Jet around - maybe he'll go to another team and they'll turn him around but he's flailing here.

Maybe Mercado really is making his case to stay with the team. I saw him as a goner but there may be value keeping him around. It's a shame we have to deal with Rule 5 while Kwan and OGon are at the verge of MLB viability. I have more faith in Kwan than OGon but do we let go fellow lefty Zimmer go to make room for him?

 

[CATS44]

As GM going into the offseason, the organization I am most worried about and also the most fascinated with is Oakland.

The As went for it this year, but faded late

Their present 40 man has 12 FAs leaving, and one option that may not be picked up. They have 12 players going into arby, and three are gonna be expensive.

Their farm system is barren, and they have almost no position prospects that are MLB ready or that will be MLB ready for 2023.

Their Rule Five problem isn't that they have too many to roster, its that they don't have near enough to even bother protecting.

My worry...and its a big one...is that the A's will be circling our prospects like vultures, and we will have a lot better bones to pick than Ka'ai Tom, and more of them.

My fascination is in the possibilities that exist with an org that needs EVERYTHING that comes with long term control and very little salary...esp when that org has exactly what I want...a well above average all around OF under control for three years at a team friendly price.

I'm looking at my roster and theirs, and I see a lot of young fringe players and prospects on our 40 man bubble that would easily make their 40 man...players that maybe don't move anybody else's needle, but just might move theirs.

Young players like Mercado, Chang, Miller, and Clement. Fringe 40 man prospects like Palacios, Tena, Noel, Kwan, and Gonzalez.

And I see a 4 WAR outfielder with three years of control that can do everything...hit, hit for power, run, and play defense.

If Oakland needs MLB ready talent, I can offer both quality and quantity.

Starting with Jones and Arias, augmented by any number of fringe players/prospects they can fit on their 40 man...many of which I am gonna lose anyway.

I'm gonna wine and dine Billy Beane. I'm not gonna go to bed at night without calling him first. I'm gonna send his wife flowers. I'm gonna send his daughter chocolates. The Guardians are gonna donate to his Alma Mater. I'm gonna learn the UCSD fight sing.

(I'm gonna tell him that I am thinking of making the fight song the theme for the Guardians...perhaps a slight exaggeration.)

 

[Gson]

Interesting posting by someone named AJBucs.. a Pittsburgh Pirates fan:

Marlins get: Bryan Reynolds
Pirates get: Kahlil Watson OF, Max Meyer RHSP Eury Perez RHSP and Peyton Burdick OF

Marlin's prospect #’s 1, 3, 6 and 14 for Reynolds.. Solves the Marlins need for a slugging OF’er.. provides three 40 man roster spots. An overpay for the uncertainty of “prospects for proven ML’ers” appears to be the norm.. FWiW.. I doubt Ben Cherington can make this deal fast enough.. This is a HUGE haul for the Pirates..

Thoughts?..