Ex Indians update

[CATS44]

None of us are old enough...not even me...to have seen the two best hitters the Indians ever had...Tris Speaker and Shoeless Joe Jackson.

But most of us got to see the next three...Manny, Belle, and Thome. An argument can be made for all three as the best of the era.

Its difficult to compare batters of different eras, but the two best stats IMO to do that are OPS+ and wRC+, neither of which are cumulative nor do they figure in defense.

Sixth is probably Al Rosen.

OPS+...

Jackson 170
Speaker 158
Manny 154
Thome 147
Belle 144
Rosen 138

wRC+...

Jackson 165
Speaker 157
Manny 153
Thome 145
Belle 139
Rosen 137

 

[MattyFos.]

Belle's peak is unmatched, Thome has the longevity over Manny with comparable numbers. I'm not sure I'd call Manny the greatest hitter we've ever had.

It's interesting though. Manny played 8 seasons with CLE and 7.5 with Boston. And I think he's probably best known for his Boston run cause of the curse and 2 WS titles.

He also had one of the greatest offensive seasons with the Tribe in 98..? I think. The 165 RBI season. That's nutty.

 

[LL3]

None of us are old enough...not even me...to have seen the two best hitters the Indians ever had...Tris Speaker and Shoeless Joe Jackson.

But most of us got to see the next three...Manny, Belle, and Thome. An argument can be made for all three as the best of the era.

Its difficult to compare batters of different eras, but the two best stats IMO to do that are OPS+ and wRC+, neither of which are cumulative nor do they figure in defense.

Sixth is probably Al Rosen.

OPS+...

Jackson 170
Speaker 158
Manny 154
Thome 147
Belle 144
Rosen 138

wRC+...

Jackson 165
Speaker 157
Manny 153
Thome 145
Belle 139
Rosen 137

When factoring in defense, it has always been easy for me to say that Speaker has been the best player to wear the CLE uniform (10+ seasons), and should not be that far removed from GOAT discussions across MLB....but as Cats remarks, none of us were around to watch him play.
For me, Manny was the best batter of this modern Indians era....one of the most beautiful right handed swings that I can recall.

 

[Out of the Rafters at the Q]

It's interesting though. Manny played 8 seasons with CLE and 7.5 with Boston. And I think he's probably best known for his Boston run cause of the curse and 2 WS titles.

He also had one of the greatest offensive seasons with the Tribe in 98..? I think. The 165 RBI season. That's nutty.

Yup that's fair. It was '99 and it's certainly a hell of a season (and I don't think RBI's mean anything).

I'd still put it #2 behind Belle's '95 campaign, which should have won him MVP. But you can argue for either.

 

[xmasbuck]

When factoring in defense, it has always been easy for me to say that Speaker has been the best player to wear the CLE uniform (10+ seasons), and should not be that far removed from GOAT discussions across MLB....but as Cats remarks, none of us were around to watch him play.
For me, Manny was the best batter of this modern Indians era....one of the most beautiful right handed swings that I can recall.

unfortunately, not all of us got to watch Speaker play

 

[LL3]

Yup that's fair. It was '99 and it's certainly a hell of a season (and I don't think RBI's mean anything).

I'd still put it #2 behind Belle's '95 campaign, which should have won him MVP. But you can argue for either.

Just for fun, let's recall Albert getting the shaft in the '95 MVP award...

Mo Vaughn (MVP) -- 28 DBL/ 39 HR/ 126 RBI .963 OPS 144 OPS +
Albert Belle -- 52 DBL/50 HR/126 RBI 1.091OPS 177 OPS+...just shy of a 1:1 BB/K ratio, too.

Albert was not an easy guy to love, but he was robbed.

 

[MattyFos.]

Just for fun, let's recall Albert getting the shaft in the '95 MVP award...

Mo Vaughn (MVP) -- 28 DBL/ 39 HR/ 126 RBI .963 OPS 144 OPS +
Albert Belle -- 52 DBL/50 HR/126 RBI 1.091OPS 177 OPS+...just shy of a 1:1 BB/K ratio, too.

Albert was not an easy guy to love, but he was robbed.

Yeah I just pulled that season up on Baseball ref. Insane he didn't win MVP for that season.

 

[KluberSociety]

This topic has come up before. I'm on Team Edgar for that MVP award although Belle makes a ton more sense than Vaughn. Vaughn wasn't even his best team member. That was John Valentin.

 

[LL3]

This topic has come up before. I'm on Team Edgar for that MVP award although Belle makes a ton more sense than Vaughn. Vaughn wasn't even his best team member. That was John Valentin.

Super legit argument for Edgar in '95 -- 52/DBL/29 HR/113 RBI 1.107 OPS 185 OPS+...as typical for him, more walks than K's.
DH only and playing Seattle hurt him, but clearly superior to Vaughn, too. Looking beyond the single season, the only HOF among the three...

 

[KluberSociety]

Super legit argument for Edgar in '95 -- 52/DBL/29 HR/113 RBI 1.107 OPS 185 OPS+...as typical for him, more walks than K's.
DH only and playing Seattle hurt him, but clearly superior to Vaughn, too. Looking beyond the single season, the only HOF among the three...

The thing that puts him over the top for me is his clutch stats. I've always felt the true "MVP" in a sport is the one who does the thing when it matters and I don't think this is incompatible with the old-school philosophy. For instance the walk-off HR is worth more than the one when you are up 10-0. While modern analytics have generally disputed that there are players who are inherently severely "clutch" I don't see why expected value would take precedence over actual value.

In Wins Probability Added, Edgar was worth 3 more than Belle (link) due to the timing of his big hits.

You could make a case though, that a DH would be discriminated against (similarly to why Randy Johnson would never win it) and that's fair.

 

[bronko]

Manny was the most natural hitter I've ever seen, just a sweet swing. Joey might have had a couple better seasons, and Thome was steady over a longer period, but I'd vote for Manny as the top Indians's hitter over the last 50 years. He was a talented disaster in most other aspects of the game. Sneaky fast on the bases, but a horrible decision maker. Great arm, but got terrible reads in RF, could make simple plays look challenging. My favorite player from those 90s teams.

 

[Real Deal]

When it came to potent swings, you had Ken Griffey Jr, and Manny Ramirez. Great stance, smooth swing.

Manny for me all day. I was 6, standing at the parking lot gate holding my Manny rookie card, he walked up to me, signed one of his weird cryptic autographs that certainly wasn't spelled Manny Ramirez, then walked to the entrance. I was one lucky fan getting his only attention that day.

 

[LL3]

When it came to potent swings, you had Ken Griffey Jr, and Manny Ramirez. Great stance, smooth swing.

Manny for me all day. I was 6, standing at the parking lot gate holding my Manny rookie card, he walked up to me, signed one of his weird cryptic autographs that certainly wasn't spelled Manny Ramirez, then walked to the entrance. I was one lucky fan getting his only attention that day.

Great story/remembrance!
A few life times ago, I hired a very young Manny Ramirez for a promotional gig -- it was among his first events of this sort. He laboriously autographed a number of items where each character was quite discernable...I still cherish those items ( there are not many like them) -- they make me smile. Young Manny was very shy and reserved, but also quite charming.

 

[CATS44]

When factoring in defense, it has always been easy for me to say that Speaker has been best player to wear the CLE uniform (10+ seasons), and should not be that far removed from GOAT discussions across MLB....but as Cats remarks, none of us were around to watch him play.
For me, Manny was the best batter of this modern Indians era....one of the most beautiful right handed swings that I can recall.

IMO there is no doubt that Speaker was the best player in Indians history.

Rosen is the Tribe player that seems to get overlooked, because his career was relatively short for a HOFer. He played hurt for most of his career, and retired at age 32.

Of course, everybody knows about Shoeless Joe, who was (probably wrongly) banned from baseball at 30.

 

[KluberSociety]

When it came to potent swings, you had Ken Griffey Jr, and Manny Ramirez. Great stance, smooth swing.

Manny for me all day. I was 6, standing at the parking lot gate holding my Manny rookie card, he walked up to me, signed one of his weird cryptic autographs that certainly wasn't spelled Manny Ramirez, then walked to the entrance. I was one lucky fan getting his only attention that day.

I'd add Barry Bonds and opposite field Miggy Cabrera (in his prime) as far as sweet swings to watch. Alongside the two you mentioned, they looked the best when they hit. Not like that necessarily means anything.