Ex Indians update

[jup]

MLB and the teams have huge investigative powers.

Plus with so many former Guardian players and personnel spread throughout the league, it isn't difficult to get first hand opinions on any former Guardian player.

Hanging with Bauer was a red flag. Having his name come up in the Bauer situation was an even bigger red flag.

Chicago ignored both, and even extolled Clevs character in the introductory presser.

Teams are taking much bigger media hits over stuff like this than used to be. In the past beat writers were basically team cheerleaders, and national writers stuck to the game. Investigative journalism within the sporting world was unknown. Even if a writer knew about off the field impropriety, he didn't print it.

Not so today. The team gets blamed for its lack of vetting when it brings in a miscreant. The White Sox are taking a beating now for signing Clevinger, esp after Larussa's DUI came to light after he was rehired as the manager.

There are already columns out that insist that Clevinger never pitch in MLB again...and the connection to Bauer is being made more public.

The court of public opinion may be unfair, but its the way it is. Even worse for Clevinger is that he is being labeled as a child abuser. As we've seen in various threads over the last 18 months, there is a segment of society that will support Bauers actions, but nobody supports child abuse...even if the 'abuse' is questionable.

Well CATS, I know you would prefer that the narrative be => association with Bauer, as in he is the bad apple that Clev is associated with, but in all actuality, it is just the opposite. Not that it really matters. But just thought I would inject some clarity.

And yes, the White Soxs were fools for trying to make Clevinger out to be this upstanding citizen because there are plenty of the stories floating around behind the scenes. But it wouldn't have mattered in todays environment anyway. The press will do what they do, and true or not (and I am not expressing an opinion) salacious gets clicks and that is what they need. So the allegations and blame game is the only side of the story that gets wide scale dissemination. And that is most often only one side of the story.

 

[jup]

I was having a conversation with some friends at the whole start of this Bauer thing. We were looking at it from the "down the road" perspective. It centered on how the players and the MLBPA were "distancing" themselves and if that was really the smart thing to do. Because the Bauer case was clearly a consensual matter and that allowing MLB to reach into the bedrooms of players had far reaching implications. Not the least of which was that it set players up to be targets of allegations, that couldn't necessarily be proven, to seek retribution, with impunity for the alleger.

If the consequences for such a claim in the Bauer case, where there is no dispute consent was clearly given and only after the fact the extent of that consent was being questioned, became "the longest" suspension ever, what were the implications for the players and union in the future. And it seems that we may have arrived at the future much sooner than expected.

Allegations that are "most probably" (given I do not know all the facts of the case) he said she said as far as being verifiable, but are clearly not consensual. So in a consensual case (Bauer) where it is shades of grey, you get "the longest" or what may be career ending (depending on what is going on behind the scenes), what do you do with something like the Clevinger case. Ban him for 3 years, 4 years ??? Given the length of a typical MLB career, might has well make it a career ban.

There in is the rub for the MLBPA and the players for running from the Bauer case. Husband and wife break up, which is very common in the player age group. Or player and longtime girlfriend. Or player and hookup (Bauers case). It is a nasty or contentious break up, or one side seeks to do harm for ulterior motives, or just seeks retribution for the fact that no relationship comes of it. No consequences for the accuser making the claim. No verifiable way of vetting the claim because it is of the he said she said variety. End of the players career ????

I guess we will see if Manfred and the MLB are hypocrites or not. Anything less than Bauer's would be a joke because the allegations (provable or not) are clearly more serious than in Bauer's case. Bauer's case set a precedent, that even in a case of consent, where there is a question about the level of that consent after the fact, that justified a suspension of the 2 years, what is it in a case where there is clearly no consent, and the allegations are strictly violent in nature yet not anymore provable?

 

[MadThinker88]

Its been a while since you were in these parts Jup... Glad you stopped by and added to the overall conversation.

 

[petes999]

Welcome back Jup ... glad when you add your thoughts.

Before this gets shut down by moderators, I had some of the thoughts as Jup mentioned. And, as I was a part of one dust-up that had to be closed, let's just stick to what Jup was saying
1) Clevinger supposedly (based on woman's account) hit her (not a part of any consensual) and threw chewing tobacco at/on their child.
2) Bauer was a part of a sex act that started as consensual that never had clear ground rules thus lines were/may have been crossed (depending on the side) but text were sent "Never been more turned on in my life,” she says. “Gimme all the pain. Rawr.”.
3) If there is guilt by association, then 1/4 of all baseball players should not be signed by any clubs and anyone ever associated with the Angels should have a red flag attached to them -- but believe me, just because you were work friends with someone doesn't mean that you are like them. But, these days no one is like Mr. Rogers - welcome to my neighborhood (for those too young).

The question is how does MLB treat this situation different from Bauer and what will happen with reported drug use after Skaggs death. It will be interesting. But, if Clevinger pitches to start the season, as the investigation may go on for months, there is some hypocrisy.

 

[jup]

Welcome back Jup ... glad when you add your thoughts.

Before this gets shut down by moderators, I had some of the thoughts as Jup mentioned. And, as I was a part of one dust-up that had to be closed, let's just stick to what Jup was saying
1) Clevinger supposedly (based on woman's account) hit her (not a part of any consensual) and threw chewing tobacco at/on their child.
2) Bauer was a part of a sex act that started as consensual that never had clear ground rules thus lines were/may have been crossed (depending on the side) but text were sent "Never been more turned on in my life,” she says. “Gimme all the pain. Rawr.”.
3) If there is guilt by association, then 1/4 of all baseball players should not be signed by any clubs and anyone ever associated with the Angels should have a red flag attached to them -- but believe me, just because you were work friends with someone doesn't mean that you are like them. But, these days no one is like Mr. Rogers - welcome to my neighborhood (for those too young).

The question is how does MLB treat this situation different from Bauer and what will happen with reported drug use after Skaggs death. It will be interesting. But, if Clevinger pitches to start the season, as the investigation may go on for months, there is some hypocrisy.

Some hypocrisy ?????

I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder

 

[petes999]

Some hypocrisy ?????

I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder

Just trying to be neutral .... with Bauer and pics, it became National outcry and they almost had no choice. We will see what media does here but that is out of mlb control.

 

[sportscoach]

Welcome back Jup ... glad when you add your thoughts.

Before this gets shut down by moderators, I had some of the thoughts as Jup mentioned. And, as I was a part of one dust-up that had to be closed, let's just stick to what Jup was saying
1) Clevinger supposedly (based on woman's account) hit her (not a part of any consensual) and threw chewing tobacco at/on their child.
2) Bauer was a part of a sex act that started as consensual that never had clear ground rules thus lines were/may have been crossed (depending on the side) but text were sent "Never been more turned on in my life,” she says. “Gimme all the pain. Rawr.”.
3) If there is guilt by association, then 1/4 of all baseball players should not be signed by any clubs and anyone ever associated with the Angels should have a red flag attached to them -- but believe me, just because you were work friends with someone doesn't mean that you are like them. But, these days no one is like Mr. Rogers - welcome to my neighborhood (for those too young).

The question is how does MLB treat this situation different from Bauer and what will happen with reported drug use after Skaggs death. It will be interesting. But, if Clevinger pitches to start the season, as the investigation may go on for months, there is some hypocrisy.

Clev should be suspended indefinitely until the investigation by MLB is done. Then Clev should face his penalty based off of an arbitration ruling.

If Clev is considered to in violation, he will face the suspension of the arbitration says without an appeal. If he isnt found guilty of a violation and missed time, he will receive the pay of the time he missed and the team will be granted a minor league time (Aka like a spring training) to get into game shape if the return date is after spring/season started...

 

[jup]

Clev should be suspended indefinitely until the investigation by MLB is done. Then Clev should face his penalty based off of an arbitration ruling.

If Clev is considered to in violation, he will face the suspension of the arbitration says without an appeal. If he isnt found guilty of a violation and missed time, he will receive the pay of the time he missed and the team will be granted a minor league time (Aka like a spring training) to get into game shape if the return date is after spring/season started...

Have to file a grievance before it can go in front of an arbitrator. So MLB would have already had to decide on a suspension and announced it publicly. And thus, we will know what colors MLB will fly long before an arbitrator is heard from. That is unless Clev decides to settle out his case behind closed doors in the smoke filled rooms. Then we will never know what MLB was asking for only what the settlement was for. Which is the way the union and MLB prefer it anyway. No daylight to the goings on.

 

[CATS44]

Consent ends at the point of unconsciousness. Bauer admitted to that.

Bauer...and his attorneys...also won't shut up and won't stop pressing lawsuits, which is their right. But it means that the circus will go on and on. Any team that signs him knows that every few months there will be more negative headlines that dredge every salacious tidbit back into the the publics attention.

In this way it differs from the Chapman case, which, at least publicly, is a one and done.

MLB isn't out of control. It was out of control when it looked the other way during the steroid era...and got burnt. Its has been out of control for a long time as it has looked at misdoings as merely boys will be boys. Those days are over.

Ty Cobb received a one day suspension for going into the stands and beating up a handicapped fan. Albert Belle was suspended six games and fined for hitting a fan with a thrown ball, obviously a lesser misdeeds. Was Belle mistreated, because of the larger penalty? Was MLB out of control, because it had now become intolerant of such behavior? No and no.

MLB has now stepped up with actions that show an intolerance for domestic violence and the mistreatment of women...actions that are decades late. Players (should) know that. And if they know that, they should know that they are, and may become, targets. Its their own damn fault if they allow themselves to be put in that type of situation.

Maybe every single claim against Bauer and Clevinger is false, although that is extremely improbable. Where there is years worth of smoke, there is usually a lot of fire. But even if the claims are all false, the two are guilty of Supreme and Intentional Stupidity. Stupidity may not be against the law, but it does often carry its own severe penalties.

Nobody should shed a tear for Mackey Callaway. Nobody should shed a tear for either Bauer or Clevinger.

Joe Jackson got screwed by MLB, not Bauer and, if he ends up with a long suspension, not Clevinger.

And it doesnt matter who led whom down the path of degeneracy, both are grown men who made there own choices.

 

[petes999]

Consent ends at the point of unconsciousness. Bauer admitted to that.

..... MLB has now stepped up with actions that show an intolerance for domestic violence and the mistreatment of women...actions that are decades late. Players (should) know that. And if they know that, they should know that they are, and may become, targets. Its their own damn fault if they allow themselves to be put in that type of situation.

Just FYI CATS ... the actual definition per mlb now is
"Sexual assault refers to a range of behaviors, including a completed nonconsensual
sex act, an attempted nonconsensual sex act, and/or nonconsensual sexual contact.
Lack of consent is inferred when a person uses force, harassment, threat of force,
threat of adverse personnel or disciplinary action, or other coercion, or when the
victim is asleep, incapacitated, unconscious or legally incapable of consent."

Just playing devils advocate, how they wrote it can get any man into trouble (think before either mlb or California said in a non-marriage or except for married couple) but here that language is dropped so infers any relationship from one-nighters to marriage and everything between. Technically, if you roll over and touch your wife provocatively, while she is asleep (or had more than legal limit), that mean the lack of consent is now inferred. Should we call the cops on you or do you sleep alone???? Those who throw stones shouldn't live in glass houses

And, this language also excludes force of any kind from the bedroom ... no kink allowed. It may be needed for obvious reasons as we are seeing but how they wrote it, most MLB players and most people have violated it at one time or another .... Sex after a NY Eve party is now taboo (lack of consent if you drunk or on drugs, even if in a relationship). Put the breathalyzer by your marital bed. Do you need to turn the lights on to see if your wife is asleep having a sexy dream or is awake and wants you to proceed past 1st base? Because even stealing 2nd base is a crime per mlb.

 

[sportscoach]

Consent ends at the point of unconsciousness. Bauer admitted to that.

Bauer...and his attorneys...also won't shut up and won't stop pressing lawsuits, which is their right. But it means that the circus will go on and on. Any team that signs him knows that every few months there will be more negative headlines that dredge every salacious tidbit back into the the publics attention.

In this way it differs from the Chapman case, which, at least publicly, is a one and done.

MLB isn't out of control. It was out of control when it looked the other way during the steroid era...and got burnt. Its has been out of control for a long time as it has looked at misdoings as merely boys will be boys. Those days are over.

Ty Cobb received a one day suspension for going into the stands and beating up a handicapped fan. Albert Belle was suspended six games and fined for hitting a fan with a thrown ball, obviously a lesser misdeeds. Was Belle mistreated, because of the larger penalty? Was MLB out of control, because it had now become intolerant of such behavior? No and no.

MLB has now stepped up with actions that show an intolerance for domestic violence and the mistreatment of women...actions that are decades late. Players (should) know that. And if they know that, they should know that they are, and may become, targets. Its their own damn fault if they allow themselves to be put in that type of situation.

Maybe every single claim against Bauer and Clevinger is false, although that is extremely improbable. Where there is years worth of smoke, there is usually a lot of fire. But even if the claims are all false, the two are guilty of Supreme and Intentional Stupidity. Stupidity may not be against the law, but it does often carry its own severe penalties.

Nobody should shed a tear for Mackey Callaway. Nobody should shed a tear for either Bauer or Clevinger.

Joe Jackson got screwed by MLB, not Bauer and, if he ends up with a long suspension, not Clevinger.

And it doesnt matter who led whom down the path of degeneracy, both are grown men who made there own choices.

Naw, Bauer did get messed over because his suspension was 3-4x as much as the next person who was actually convicted in court of a crime, Hence why his suspension was reduced. MLB (Aka Manfred) purposely did what they did because they (he) wanted Bauer out of the league. He has wanted him out of the league for awhile, but wasn't able to do so...

Either way, I think what the original poster was stating is Clev needs to face a similar (Aka a full season) suspension otherwise MLB isn't treating everyone the same...

That's honestly a wait and see thing...

 

[jup]

Consent ends at the point of unconsciousness. Bauer admitted to that.

Bauer...and his attorneys...also won't shut up and won't stop pressing lawsuits, which is their right. But it means that the circus will go on and on. Any team that signs him knows that every few months there will be more negative headlines that dredge every salacious tidbit back into the the publics attention.

In this way it differs from the Chapman case, which, at least publicly, is a one and done.

MLB isn't out of control. It was out of control when it looked the other way during the steroid era...and got burnt. Its has been out of control for a long time as it has looked at misdoings as merely boys will be boys. Those days are over.

Ty Cobb received a one day suspension for going into the stands and beating up a handicapped fan. Albert Belle was suspended six games and fined for hitting a fan with a thrown ball, obviously a lesser misdeeds. Was Belle mistreated, because of the larger penalty? Was MLB out of control, because it had now become intolerant of such behavior? No and no.

MLB has now stepped up with actions that show an intolerance for domestic violence and the mistreatment of women...actions that are decades late. Players (should) know that. And if they know that, they should know that they are, and may become, targets. Its their own damn fault if they allow themselves to be put in that type of situation.

Maybe every single claim against Bauer and Clevinger is false, although that is extremely improbable. Where there is years worth of smoke, there is usually a lot of fire. But even if the claims are all false, the two are guilty of Supreme and Intentional Stupidity. Stupidity may not be against the law, but it does often carry its own severe penalties.

Nobody should shed a tear for Mackey Callaway. Nobody should shed a tear for either Bauer or Clevinger.

Joe Jackson got screwed by MLB, not Bauer and, if he ends up with a long suspension, not Clevinger.

And it doesnt matter who led whom down the path of degeneracy, both are grown men who made there own choices.

Equal treatment will show whether MLB is or is not CATS. So Clevinger better be staring down a multi year suspension and not allowed to play since the allegations are now public. And like SportsCoach said, that is a wait and see.

 

[jup]

Just FYI CATS ... the actual definition per mlb now is
"Sexual assault refers to a range of behaviors, including a completed nonconsensual
sex act, an attempted nonconsensual sex act, and/or nonconsensual sexual contact.
Lack of consent is inferred when a person uses force, harassment, threat of force,
threat of adverse personnel or disciplinary action, or other coercion, or when the
victim is asleep, incapacitated, unconscious or legally incapable of consent."

Just playing devils advocate, how they wrote it can get any man into trouble (think before either mlb or California said in a non-marriage or except for married couple) but here that language is dropped so infers any relationship from one-nighters to marriage and everything between. Technically, if you roll over and touch your wife provocatively, while she is asleep (or had more than legal limit), that mean the lack of consent is now inferred. Should we call the cops on you or do you sleep alone???? Those who throw stones shouldn't live in glass houses

And, this language also excludes force of any kind from the bedroom ... no kink allowed. It may be needed for obvious reasons as we are seeing but how they wrote it, most MLB players and most people have violated it at one time or another .... Sex after a NY Eve party is now taboo (lack of consent if you drunk or on drugs, even if in a relationship). Put the breathalyzer by your marital bed. Do you need to turn the lights on to see if your wife is asleep having a sexy dream or is awake and wants you to proceed past 1st base? Because even stealing 2nd base is a crime per mlb.

That is the problem with this whole thing Pete - the scope of what can be used as an allegation is so wide, every player has now been made a target. And since there were never any charges filed against Bauer, the allegations alone become the basis for a multi year suspension.

Don't want to try to throw shade, but reality tells us there are people in this world that will use the ability to misrepresent to their advantage, and that only works one way for MLB players and it isn't good.

 

[petes999]

Perez to the Giants

Giants To Sign Roberto Perez

The Giants have reached a deal with catcher Roberto Perez, according to MassLive.com's Chris Cotillo (Twitter links). It seems as …

www.mlbtraderumors.com

 

[DCTribefan]

Brandon Guyer was a sleep warrior. Who knew?

How the pitch timer can help player health

Brandon Guyer was no lock to reach and stick in the big leagues. As a fifth-round Draft pick out of the University of Virginia in 2007, he knew his only chance of ascending in the sport would be to train that much harder, eat that much healthier and play that

www.mlb.com