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sportscoach

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imo, losing John Sherman killed any hope of signing Lindor - tho I'm not sure there was (is?) any realistic hope of keeping him
I have a hunch with Sherman there, the ownership was going to figure out how to bite the bullet and resign Lindor.

Reason why it actually was possible was actually because of the retool/short rebuild we are doing behind the scenes. If you cut Clev, Hand and Santana off the books, you are down to 70-80 mil range if that with Lindors bloated contract. Indians ownership can afford that especially with Sherman there. Majority of the roster is essentially on rookie/arb 1 years so its quite possible to be able to pay Lindor a fair amount of money since they were under cap.

Then around 23, when some guys needed to be paid, there would be a new bargaining agreement plus a new TV deal, which with Cleveland being one of the higher rated teams on TV, there is a very good probability of a payroll increase. Now this is just projection and theory, but i have a hunch the ownership was supposed to switch to Sherman then as well with Dolans being the minority. So you would have a couple ownership groups plus a new TV. In theory the possibility of keeping Lindor, Bieber etc, actually was possible if all the cards got played right and the bargaining agreement plus TV deal feel into their favor.

With Royals going up for Sale and Covid, screwed all the plans. I cannot see them getting this plan done now unless you have essentially an extremely deep pocket book like Dan Gilbert becoming minority and willing to spend to keep Lindor.
 

Andrew Scheid

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I have a hunch with Sherman there, the ownership was going to figure out how to bite the bullet and resign Lindor.

Reason why it actually was possible was actually because of the retool/short rebuild we are doing behind the scenes. If you cut Clev, Hand and Santana off the books, you are down to 70-80 mil range if that with Lindors bloated contract. Indians ownership can afford that especially with Sherman there. Majority of the roster is essentially on rookie/arb 1 years so its quite possible to be able to pay Lindor a fair amount of money since they were under cap.

Then around 23, when some guys needed to be paid, there would be a new bargaining agreement plus a new TV deal, which with Cleveland being one of the higher rated teams on TV, there is a very good probability of a payroll increase. Now this is just projection and theory, but i have a hunch the ownership was supposed to switch to Sherman then as well with Dolans being the minority. So you would have a couple ownership groups plus a new TV. In theory the possibility of keeping Lindor, Bieber etc, actually was possible if all the cards got played right and the bargaining agreement plus TV deal feel into their favor.

With Royals going up for Sale and Covid, screwed all the plans. I cannot see them getting this plan done now unless you have essentially an extremely deep pocket book like Dan Gilbert becoming minority and willing to spend to keep Lindor.
If Sherman was the key to the Indians signing Lindor long-term, then why was their extension offer in the spring of 2017 embarrassingly low? The offer to Lindor was reported to be in the $100 million range. There's no dimension where Frankie was going to take such a low ball offer.

I have zero insight into whether or not the Dolans, in partnership with Sherman, were serious about paying our beloved SS fair-market value to extend his time in Cleveland beyond seven years, but based on their offer in 2017, I can't envision that they were ever serious about offering a $350 million-range deal to him.
 

TFIR

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Much as us fans don't want to hear this - the expanded playoffs makes the odds for every team (16!!) in the playoffs much more remote.

Whereas you can still say "anything can happen in the playoffs" and it is true - it is LESS likely this season to make a run through the extra teams.

So forgive me if I speculate that the front office grabbed the glut of future assets with the Clevinger deal figuring this season is a wash.

And I can hope that WHEN (not if) they trade Lindor this offseason they pick up a bat superior to Lindor's. The way he is hitting this season that isn't such a tall order after all.

You can always pick up a slick fielding shortstop (the Orioles STOLE Jose Iglesias) if necessary.

You might think "no way they get a good bat for ONE year of Lindor". The Red Sox got Alex Verdugo + more for Betts. That would do JUST fine! Look up Verdugo if you haven't.
 

Gson

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Much as us fans don't want to hear this - the expanded playoffs makes the odds for every team (16!!) in the playoffs much more remote.

Whereas you can still say "anything can happen in the playoffs" and it is true - it is LESS likely this season to make a run through the extra teams.

So forgive me if I speculate that the front office grabbed the glut of future assets with the Clevinger deal figuring this season is a wash.

And I can hope that WHEN (not if) they trade Lindor this offseason they pick up a bat superior to Lindor's. The way he is hitting this season that isn't such a tall order after all.

You can always pick up a slick fielding shortstop (the Orioles STOLE Jose Iglesias) if necessary.

You might think "no way they get a good bat for ONE year of Lindor". The Red Sox got Alex Verdugo + more for Betts. That would do JUST fine! Look up Verdugo if you haven't.
Betts ($$$$) AND Price ($$$$$$$) for Alex Verdugo, Jeter Downs & Conner Wong.. First and foremost.. this was a massive salary dump by the Red Sox.. who also got a very good (but injured at the time OF'er) and two other B Prospects..


Edit: The massiveness of the salary dump was only slightly lessened by the cash part of the deal
 

Urban

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If Sherman was the key to the Indians signing Lindor long-term, then why was their extension offer in the spring of 2017 embarrassingly low? The offer to Lindor was reported to be in the $100 million range. There's no dimension where Frankie was going to take such a low ball offer.
Embarrassingly low?

I'm pretty sure what the Indians offered him would've been the largest pre-arb extension in MLB history behind Trout

2 years later, Acuna took 8 yrs $100m after 1 season and Bregman took 6 yrs $100m after ~2-1/3 seasons.

Look around the league. So many players are willing to settle for less than what they're worth to get significant guaranteed money and peace of mind. Indians are unlucky that Lindor was willing to bet on himself and it's surely going to pay off for him.
 

TFIR

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Depends on your point of view. I am an Indians' fan first.

If they did re-sign Lindor, then proceeded to suck because they couldn't then afford anyone else around him - I would be one unhappy camper.

In addition I'd be much happier if they got good return for him, while they could, and continued to contend.

This is all about Frankie. If he doesn't do discount then I do not want him. The pandemic just put those final nails in the coffin.
 

Gson

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Embarrassingly low?

I'm pretty sure what the Indians offered him would've been the largest pre-arb extension in MLB history behind Trout

2 years later, Acuna took 8 yrs $100m after 1 season and Bregman took 6 yrs $100m after ~2-1/3 seasons.

Look around the league. So many players are willing to settle for less than what they're worth to get significant guaranteed money and peace of mind. Indians are unlucky that Lindor was willing to bet on himself and it's surely going to pay off for him.
The contract offer posted in various publications..said six years at $ 107 MM plus two that were consider large money'd club option years. The length of contract would have pushed Lindor's control to 2023-25 including the two more for the enormous option years..

It's not a question of whether Lindor's peace of mind was worth two years at nearly $ 27 MM/year (per the posting) He would have lost money by taking the six year plus two option years deal. There is NO DOUBT that after 2023, in his age 29 season, having a combined two year & plus $ 50 MM deal would be the least he would get.. especially at a time when he may have been able to demand a 7 to 10 year deal in free agency. Either way.. this is territory beyond the pale for the Cleveland Indians... The Tribe FO did their best to keep him within their means.. within the means of a fiscally sane organization. Unless there were/are huge changes to revenue streams.. it wouldn't matter who the minority owner is/was..

Thoughts?..
 

sportscoach

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If Sherman was the key to the Indians signing Lindor long-term, then why was their extension offer in the spring of 2017 embarrassingly low? The offer to Lindor was reported to be in the $100 million range. There's no dimension where Frankie was going to take such a low ball offer.

I have zero insight into whether or not the Dolans, in partnership with Sherman, were serious about paying our beloved SS fair-market value to extend his time in Cleveland beyond seven years, but based on their offer in 2017, I can't envision that they were ever serious about offering a $350 million-range deal to him.
It wasn't low at all, as someone else mentioned, it would have been the second largest to a player with his service time. So thats not low balling Lindor at all, he just stayed at minimum and bet on himself to gain more later.

Now I believe the Indians brass where trying to keep Lindor and build around him. Now with the 300 mil contracts coming out, Sherman leaving plus now Covid, i just cannot see a scenario to keep Lindor long term unless we get a new minority owner and the Dolans willing to do no better than break even until the TV deal gets done
 

Andrew Scheid

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Offering a guy with less than two years of Major League production a $100 million-plus contract extension doesn't seem "low ball" to me.

I certainly could be in the wrong here, however.
Embarrassingly low?

I'm pretty sure what the Indians offered him would've been the largest pre-arb extension in MLB history behind Trout

2 years later, Acuna took 8 yrs $100m after 1 season and Bregman took 6 yrs $100m after ~2-1/3 seasons.

Look around the league. So many players are willing to settle for less than what they're worth to get significant guaranteed money and peace of mind. Indians are unlucky that Lindor was willing to bet on himself and it's surely going to pay off for him.

I stand corrected with the "embarrassingly low" remark concerning a $100 million extension.
Clearly, the $100 million offer wasn't low at all, but fair market value for a player with less than two years of MLB experience.

My previous post should have emphasized how even with Sherman on board, ownership wasn't ever likely to go beyond the $100 million extension offer and seriously negotiate a contract of $350 million to keep Lindor when he becomes eligible for free agency.
 

Huber.

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The usual suspects in this article other than this:

The Indians 2021 Roster Could Look Nothing Like it Does Now; Could That Be a Good Thing?

Jose Ramirez - Due to make $9.4 million in 2021, would it be a surprise to hear Ramirez’s name pop up when it comes to trade rumors? Ramirez is due to make $11 million in 2022 with a $2 million dollar buyout, and in 2023 at age 30 he’s due to see a salary of $13 million.

By the time 2021 starts Ramirez might be the only starting 2020 infielder left on the roster, and while again you’re likely to hear his name pop up if team’s have interest, here’s a bet he’s on the roster next season - for what could be his last.

 

xmasbuck

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The usual suspects in this article other than this:

The Indians 2021 Roster Could Look Nothing Like it Does Now; Could That Be a Good Thing?

Jose Ramirez - Due to make $9.4 million in 2021, would it be a surprise to hear Ramirez’s name pop up when it comes to trade rumors? Ramirez is due to make $11 million in 2022 with a $2 million dollar buyout, and in 2023 at age 30 he’s due to see a salary of $13 million.

By the time 2021 starts Ramirez might be the only starting 2020 infielder left on the roster, and while again you’re likely to hear his name pop up if team’s have interest, here’s a bet he’s on the roster next season - for what could be his last.

i'm surprised we dont hear carrasco's name more - he's owed 12 mil each of the next two seasons and has a vesting option for the 3rd year at 15 mil if he pitches 170 innings - if they dont want to afford clevinger at say 8 mil for next season why would they want to drop that kind of money on cookie?
 

Urban

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The contract offer posted in various publications..said six years at $ 107 MM plus two that were consider large money'd club option years. The length of contract would have pushed Lindor's control to 2023-25 including the two more for the enormous option years..

It's not a question of whether Lindor's peace of mind was worth two years at nearly $ 27 MM/year (per the posting) He would have lost money by taking the six year plus two option years deal. There is NO DOUBT that after 2023, in his age 29 season, having a combined two year & plus $ 50 MM deal would be the least he would get.. especially at a time when he may have been able to demand a 7 to 10 year deal in free agency. Either way.. this is territory beyond the pale for the Cleveland Indians... The Tribe FO did their best to keep him within their means.. within the means of a fiscally sane organization. Unless there were/are huge changes to revenue streams.. it wouldn't matter who the minority owner is/was..

Thoughts?..
There's certainly doubt. It's a calculated risk and Lindor at the time was still a full 5 seasons away from hitting UFA. Injuries happen in sports.

Who is to say he doesn't turn into Grady Sizemore? Grady Sizemore signed an extension after his first full season at age 23 (6 yrs $23.45m). Had Sizemore not signed an extension, I believe the final year of his Indians contract would've been for 2010. He missed quite a few games in 2009 and his numbers were way down and his numbers from 2010 were pretty grim before season ending knee surgery. I assume Sizemore more or less broke even with what he would've made in arbitration salary but he would've lost tens of millions had he rejected a Lindor-like offer.

If Acuna never signs that contract and stays healthy, he hits free agency on the verge of his 26th birthday and is probably signing a contract worth over $400m. Now he's in a good situation where he still stands to hit free agency at age 30.

There's a reason why we see players take deals that look extremely team friendly. It's a grind to hit free agency
 

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